Sale Game Thread

[BG]

IMO the squad is fine, how fine is yet to be seen, so either the coaching is not up to it, or it is going to take a few matches for things to bed in. The trouble is that if in a few matches things haven't settled then we are a bit late to start changing the coaching.
With the turnover of players I was expecting a jittery year and a mid-table finish. For now am going to keep hoping for an improvement, and more of one that the teams around us manage.

Me too on the squad. Yes, new people, but....really long pre season. Quality players we had last year still in key positions so not so new.

I looked at what happened to Saints when Mallinder went. And why. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42324266

If you are going to make a big change - I'd guess pre xmas......

I'm guessing that makes sense as it allows the new DoR to make his own choices in the transfer market in Jan - March.

[mike909]

Mind you, I cited Saints and an example of change and they promptly lost, so I should perhaps change my name to Jonah and start "bigging" up the SalarySins.

:-)

That said, there are parallels, long term DoR, fall off in form/league position rather rapidly, need to make a decision to change/not change

[mike909]

IMO the squad is fine, how fine is yet to be seen, so either the coaching is not up to it, or it is going to take a few matches for things to bed in. The trouble is that if in a few matches things haven't settled then we are a bit late to start changing the coaching.
With the turnover of players I was expecting a jittery year and a mid-table finish. For now am going to keep hoping for an improvement, and more of one that the teams around us manage.

Me too on the squad. Yes, new people, but....really long pre season. Quality players we had last year still in key positions so not so new.

I looked at what happened to Saints when Mallinder went. And why. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42324266

If you are going to make a big change - I'd guess pre xmas......

I'm guessing that makes sense as it allows the new DoR to make his own choices in the transfer market in Jan - March.

Its an option. Its not the only one, but it did strike me that the Saints experience and reaction was at least an option. Especially in terms of when and why.

The BBC article makes interesting reading

[Tervueren]

There is a (cliche based) argument that if you stop being part of the solution then you become part of the problem, and it could be that a person who was great at one time in the clubs history is not helping now. I hope not and that things pick up, but hope is a poor strategy.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

There is a (cliche based) argument that if you stop being part of the solution then you become part of the problem, and it could be that a person who was great at one time in the clubs history is not helping now. I hope not and that things pick up, but hope is a poor strategy.

Interesting thought. I wonder who that might be in recent years? Have we had an excellent coach leave us? I think not. So, maybe a player. I will rule out Cips, as he is too variable to have been that person. Let's say that the Beale year was the end of the timeframe (2015-2016?). Anybody who stayed on (or switched off) after that is counted out. Who does that leave? Wade?

Both Wade (from 2016/17) and Daly (from 2017/18) lost interest, as far as I could see. And we lost Jimmy from the field. Their vibrant personalities, their teamwork and their intelligence. Jimmy is back, at last, but on his own. We have not replaced Wade or Daly, in the personality front.

Much as I like Joe's work rate, the clear loss in the pack was the Archbishop of Banterbury. Again, we haven't replaced his personality. We have lost the heart and soul of the team. It will come back, but it will take time for others to step up. I can see Odogwu stepping up, but I can't see that in the other backs we are featuring. Maybe Minozzi. I don't see it in the forwards either. Maybe Vailanu will be.

Time. Not this year though. This is not something you buy in, but it IS something you can lose.

[Hymenoptera]

The Arch bishop was permanently injured and spent much of his injury time elsewhere, I think his contribution is overplayed.
Daly's personality I question, i'm not sure he much of a squad magnet, certainly towards the end I think he took away more than he added. Wade was always singular, in his own vibe.
I agree we need a leader, we don't have any. Launch is a leader in his workrate but not a leader of men...same maybe for shields.
Gopps is a leader but when he's not there, what next. Dan and YY as captains is a massive own goal for me.
I think in a season or so that person is J Wilis...but thats further out than i'd like.

[mike909]

There is a (cliche based) argument that if you stop being part of the solution then you become part of the problem, and it could be that a person who was great at one time in the clubs history is not helping now. I hope not and that things pick up, but hope is a poor strategy.

Well that describes Mallinder at Saints. It is a cliche, but it certainly has seemed pertinent in business in my experience. And the problem is identifying the point when and crucially, if, that tipping point occurs and also for whom.

The problem is that Wasps are showing a drop off in form and league position from beginning of last season (least on the surface)

So what is causing that problem? Its unlikely to be one thing, but a decent squad, which last season had the excuse of injuries, has carried on onto this season, looking too often (to me) like they are uncertain about what they are going to do. Its not a lack of effort, its not a lack of talent, but it does appear to be a problem in making a squad of good individuals play like a team.

So, its then an issue of looking at the potential reasons from the coaching set up, the communication from coach to team, the leadership, the period the coaching team has been in place etc etc

I'm not qualified to know. But...just carrying on doing the same thing expecting a different outcome is where failure occurs more often than not.

[Mellie]

I feel that as a team we lack rugby intelligence. Really top players have it in spades which is why they can instinctively play what's in front of them. A few of them together, like we have had, can produce the results and make less intuitive players look better because they just have to concentrate on doing what they can do best. Bassett is an example of that.

I would hope that the coaches have the rugby intelligence though. The remedy would be to coach lots of scenarios so less intuitive players can spot and react to situations they have practiced much quicker.

I have noticed players switch off sometimes when not directly involved in a play and are consequently slow to adapt if it doesn't go to plan. We need to up our intensity.

[Hymenoptera]

The difference between a side in 4th and 11th https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=294875&league=267979

Very little it seems. Penalties in the wrong area's for sure. Given the amount of breaks vs meters made, startling contrast in almost dble meters on same breaks. Not sure what this tells us other than we need to be more streetwise, smarter and control where we play.

[Shugs]

I agree Hymoneptera. We are dealing with small margins. We simply have too many good players to be far away. For me we're so desperate to win this year that we're almost snatching at things. That's frustrating but not nearly as worrying as the ambivalence and lack of interest of last year. In attack I've heard several times already "that's like the Wasps of two years ago". I think we just need to improve the discipline, concentrate on the basics and the talent we have will come through.

[SilverShire]

I agree with you as well, controlling the breakdown has to be one of the focuses this week

[backdoc]

Jack Willis now IMO.

LOL was captain at what age - 21?

Jack Willis looked like a captain from his very first game.

[Heathen]

Jack would be my choice as well. He epitomises many of the values exhibited by LBND.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I'd be very happy with Jack as Captain.

[Westy68]

I agree I don’t think it’s big  margins to get into the top 6, I feel our squad depth is not good enough for top 4, as I said before we are about 4 players short for that. But top 6 for me is a mental issue rather than quality, this is a coaching problem.