EAs BBC - Squad May Be Dismantled

[welsh wasp]

Hi 13thWarrior:
It may called a transfer as in football but it’s a change of employer - from Saracens to whoever - and that means the employment with Saracens has been terminated. So the player can claim unfair dismissal if he’s been given no choice in the matter. One alternative is to agree he’s been made redundant - which seems to be the case since Saracens will be saying we can’t afford to keep him - which will give the player peanuts if all they do is give him the very low statutory redundancy payment. And if the player isn’t happy with how much they give him, they can say “why have you chosen me rather than ......
That’s why most organisations do deals - we’ll pay this much as long as you sign an agreement saying you won’t sue us. And Saracens will then have paid even more out above the salary cap.
The players at risk need to find a good employer lawyer to represent them. Probably not from Freshfields since they will disqualified because one of their partners is now Saracens’ Chair.
Basically, Saracens now have big trouble.

[backdoc]

"Basically, Saracens now have big trouble."

Let's hope so.

If we had been right at the top table, would we have lost Cips, Loz, Daly, Hughes, Symonds, C-W, Stuart etc? They felt we weren't going to win anything and moved either for money and/or more likelihood of trophies [yes Cips was more complicated].

Baxter was bang on when he talked about careers being broken by this.

[matelot22]

I enjoyed listening to Paul William's on Under The Sticks today on the matter. He points out how its progressed from a few transgressions where they forgot to report a few payments to now its seeming it was a deliberately contrived scheme to cheat the league. This is just further proof how Nigel always has been and remains a lying cheating scum bag who thinks hes above the rules. Some might think that's harsh but I've paid money to watch a rigged league...I've seen people lose their jobs and players careers be cut short or unfairly judged based on the fact others were cheating the whole time. Yes I'm angry. Also angry at how even now most the Saracens fans fail to hold their club to account and continue to say they have been harshly treated. NIGEL LIED TO THEM TO. They should be just as angry. The way certain media have reported on this has also been pathetic. Jim Hamilton and Stephen Jones etc. Absolute joke!!! It might be against the spirit of rugby but for me who ever wears the Jersey or cheers on the badge has lost my respect and I wish them the worst of luck. They deserve to be relegated. What ever happens at the end of this season if it is anything other than them going down there will remain some really angry people around.
Even them being relegated wont undo the damage they have intentionally done in the last decade of premiership rugby.

Why not save us all the stress and just kick them out of the league only to return once they have disbanded their team all together. Cutting a few players still does not undo the advantage they have had in being able to retain players and build a cohesive team and club.

+1, absofuckinglutely. Well said that man.

[Neils]

+1m

[Rifleman Harris]

"Basically, Saracens now have big trouble."

Let's hope so.

If we had been right at the top table, would we have lost Cips, Loz, Daly, Hughes, Symonds, C-W, Stuart etc? They felt we weren't going to win anything and moved either for money and/or more likelihood of trophies [yes Cips was more complicated].

Baxter was bang on when he talked about careers being broken by this.

Also, had we been top of the table would some of those players had more England game time?  I suspect they would have been looked upon somewhat  differently.

[Lwasp]

Hi 13thWarrior:
It may called a transfer as in football but it’s a change of employer - from Saracens to whoever - and that means the employment with Saracens has been terminated. So the player can claim unfair dismissal if he’s been given no choice in the matter. One alternative is to agree he’s been made redundant - which seems to be the case since Saracens will be saying we can’t afford to keep him - which will give the player peanuts if all they do is give him the very low statutory redundancy payment. And if the player isn’t happy with how much they give him, they can say “why have you chosen me rather than ......
That’s why most organisations do deals - we’ll pay this much as long as you sign an agreement saying you won’t sue us. And Saracens will then have paid even more out above the salary cap.
The players at risk need to find a good employer lawyer to represent them. Probably not from Freshfields since they will disqualified because one of their partners is now Saracens’ Chair.
Basically, Saracens now have big trouble.

The rules around redundancy also require the role to be redundant, not the person. Which is a very interesting area for a professional sports team. If you are a squad player, say a winger, it cannot be redundancy if an academy winger is elevated to the squad to fill your gap. You would have a legitimate claim for unfair dismissal (assuming you meet the minimum 2 year employment requirement). A need to replace the squad player would almost certainly necessitate the need to an enhanced compensation payment. All of which would limit the saving against cap and mean more players would need to be released to get total expenditure down.

I hope this story runs and runs. The whole thing has stunk for far too long.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Hi 13thWarrior:
It may called a transfer as in football but it’s a change of employer - from Saracens to whoever - and that means the employment with Saracens has been terminated. So the player can claim unfair dismissal if he’s been given no choice in the matter. One alternative is to agree he’s been made redundant - which seems to be the case since Saracens will be saying we can’t afford to keep him - which will give the player peanuts if all they do is give him the very low statutory redundancy payment. And if the player isn’t happy with how much they give him, they can say “why have you chosen me rather than ......
That’s why most organisations do deals - we’ll pay this much as long as you sign an agreement saying you won’t sue us. And Saracens will then have paid even more out above the salary cap.
The players at risk need to find a good employer lawyer to represent them. Probably not from Freshfields since they will disqualified because one of their partners is now Saracens’ Chair.
Basically, Saracens now have big trouble.

The rules around redundancy also require the role to be redundant, not the person. Which is a very interesting area for a professional sports team. If you are a squad player, say a winger, it cannot be redundancy if an academy winger is elevated to the squad to fill your gap. You would have a legitimate claim for unfair dismissal (assuming you meet the minimum 2 year employment requirement). A need to replace the squad player would almost certainly necessitate the need to an enhanced compensation payment. All of which would limit the saving against cap and mean more players would need to be released to get total expenditure down.

I hope this story runs and runs. The whole thing has stunk for far too long.

I was thinking this.  But are the players direct employees, or are they operating as a sole employee of a ltd company that is contracted to provide a service?  If the latter the redundancy laws wouldn't apply.

[Lwasp]

Don't give the cheats ideas VV. If they weren't before they will be now. Salary Cap underspent by £7m, we have no employees and no salary!!!

[welsh wasp]

I would be surprised if they are self-employed - and if they were, they and, in this case, Saracens would be at a future risk from the next tax year when IR35 is supposed to be tightened-up. To be slightly frivolous, to be self-employed they would have to supply their own kit, decide for themselves how they deliver their services and invoice Saracens after each match or whatever. All their work is controlled by Saracens (and that applies to Wasps and other clubs too) so that sounds like an employment contract. I am a consultant to a number of clients, decide for myself how and when I work for them, have my own office, pc etc,and then deliver services to them. Doesn't sound anywhere close to being an employee. And I certainly don't want my client deducting tax and NI from my fees. That's my responsibility.

[Westy68]

A question - if I was a serious betting man and I lost a hell of a lot of money on a bet that I placed against Sarries, say wasps to beat them in the Semi, that clearly unfair as one team cheated. Is that breaking the law, can I sue the PRL or Sarries.

I think Sarries really do need to understand the Severity or they Crimes, which I don’t believe Sarries or the PRL have done. This has effected Joe Blogs and other professional rugby players

[wasps]

A question - if I was a serious betting man and I lost a hell of a lot of money on a bet that I placed against Sarries, say wasps to beat them in the Semi, that clearly unfair as one team cheated. Is that breaking the law, can I sue the PRL or Sarries.

I think Sarries really do need to understand the Severity or they Crimes, which I don’t believe Sarries or the PRL have done. This has effected Joe Blogs and other professional rugby players

I like the thinking.

But, if you bet on a sporting event and one of the players cheats during the game, you have no recourse.
As such, I suspect there's no case to answer here either.


If a fight goes ahead and it's later determined that one of the fighters had failed a drug test, the bets are still final unless the fight gets called a no contest..... I think

[St Bruno]

Welsh Wasp,
The player also do not have the right of substitution, making it all the more likely that it's an employment contract.

[Peej]

It's amazing that they claimed to be under the cap, and yet releasing three relatively average players and one big earner, none of whom were marquee, will apparently free up more than £1 million.

As plenty of others have said, it was clear they were cheating, the difference in the statements between when they were given the fine, when they declared they weren't going to appeal it, and now all reveal that it was deliberate and systematic, and extensive. And more and more I think the players were complicit.

[bournender2]

Over the last month or three, I have seen classic deflection tactics - "ah but look what Dean and Quins got up to, we're not the only ones...."

The sophistication, complexity and length of time of Quins naughtiness is in retrospect quite risible by comparison.

And Dean's penalty was not just deciding for himself that he wouldn't go to Away games as he wouldn't like the opposition supporter's attention - he was banned from Rugby (and earning a living within it) for 3 years.

Were the PRL in charge then?

[welsh wasp]

Good thinking St Bruno.
Mind you, I suppose a player could wander across to the touch-line and tell his coach that he didn't think he was playing well so could he advised that he should be substituted.