EAs BBC - Squad May Be Dismantled

[WickedWasp]

It's amazing that they claimed to be under the cap, and yet releasing three relatively average players and one big earner, none of whom were marquee, will apparently free up more than £1 million.

As plenty of others have said, it was clear they were cheating, the difference in the statements between when they were given the fine, when they declared they weren't going to appeal it, and now all reveal that it was deliberate and systematic, and extensive. And more and more I think the players were complicit.

I agree about the players. Didnt saracens brag about how they deal with the players direct. Sort of removes the "I didnt know the details" arguement. And I have no doubt if I was being offered a sum money and then an extra sum of money on the side you dont need to be a genius to be suspicious. Truth is they didnt care as they were winning trophies and gaining international recognition whilst others suffered. As I said scum.

I know it is not just an opinion that this has caused huge friction with players from other clubs. In the media players might be being kind and saying its not the players fault but I know it has caused some animosity between players and not just at England camp.

I continue to be so disappointed by the way this is all being reported. The way they still admire Saracens as a team etc. They were built illegally and so it remains the case for so long as they continue to avoid any genuine punishment that undoes the advantages they have gained.

Winds me up hearing them referred to as champions or players as 3 times winners etc. I'm sorry all that is unable to be officially removed but any person with balls would just leave it out of introductions as they should. They cheated their way to titles.

There was a story back 2015/16 or around that time where McCall said about how they were going to have to decide whole they lose from their squad out of Maro and Owen etc. They didnt end up losing anyone.

[backdoc]

McCall has kept his head down but I do not believe he can distance himself from this whole process. He knew that his team were assembled and retained outside the rules of the Premiership.

[WickedWasp]

Agree about McCall. Its seems the majority of our media are either ex players and are too connected still to the players to say what everyone is thinking or as in Stephen Jones case enjoying the hospitality a bit too much.

It is why I like Blood and Mud the podcast because they say what they think.

[RBB]

It looks like they won't be signing Jonny May for next season either https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/jonny-may-next-club-saracens-wont-sign-england-wing-salary-cap-squad-season-a9278001.html

[Shugs]

Yes, agree about McCall. To be honest even before the cap revelations (which he must have known about) he annoyed me intensely with his hushed tones, faux reticence to celebrate, and inability not to frame any game in the context of "we can still improve" even though they'd just won 85-0.

[RBB]

Yes, agree about McCall. To be honest even before the cap revelations (which he must have known about) he annoyed me intensely with his hushed tones, faux reticence to celebrate, and inability not to frame any game in the context of "we can still improve" even though they'd just won 85-0.

+1 on this, I also think players signing up to deals were probably told that the club had a mechanism for dealing with any payment/investment regimes being proposed. That doesn't make players complicit but I suspect assurances were given that is was nothing to worry about.  The Jonny May back-down will possibly be borne out of not wanting to draw anymore attention to themselves and being focused on promoting their Academy players. McCall is IMHO is a smug individual who needs taking down a peg or two!

[Buttoi]

https://www.lawinsport.com/more/podcast/item/lord-dyson-one-of-the-leading-lawyers-of-his-generation-shares-his-perspective-on-sports-law

Around the 30 min mark Lord Dyson speaking about his findings on Saracens or what he can’t say.

[BG]

It would be really interesting to find out if players are "employees" or 3rd party contractors.

If they are employees then they have to be paid via PAYE scheme. If they aren't being paid from the club by the PAYE scheme they will be paid as "suppliers of a service" which means players will be raising yearly invoices.

I'd be very surprised if the higher earners were on PAYE as this isn't tax efficient for both the club and player. Daly has had his ltd company since 2013.. which implies players do in fact get paid as "suppliers of a service - rugby". Interestingly Daly is late in posting his accounts for the tax year ending 31 March 2019

As someone else has mentioned HMRC are cracking down on this. If you predominantly do work for one company (in this case a rugby club), use their facilities, equipment, canteen etc you are deemed an "employee".

The reason for this is that both the club and player reduce their tax liability if the player raises a yearly invoice from their Ltd company.

It happens a lot in the car industry and famously the BBC.. where presenters etc were advised by the BBC to go "self employed".. but a lot of those presenters have now been hit  with massive tax bills as HMRC deemed them to be employees and not 3rd party service providers. I presume most of the high earners (anything over £80k) will also have to be VAT registered.

If Sarries want to offload players midway through a contract (invoiced by the player) then surely they will still have to pay the whole of the invoice.. which will still be part of the salary cap.

The only way around this is for a player to voluntarily reduce the invoice (issuing a credit note) but what player is going to do that? This could get very very messy for Sarries

[BG]

And  now PRL are sort of admitting that Sarries have got off lightly

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7874467/Clubs-relegated-stripped-titles-Saracens-style-salary-cap-breaches.html

[wasps]

Don't most sportsmen have their companies for image rights payments??? With salaries being paid as per a "normal" employee

[Shugs]

I wasn't sure whether to do it. I did. I watched Ospreys v Sarries. I can't watch them again. Just a sample of some of the commentary/punditry/analysis. "Such determination in adversity", "we feel like we're up against it each week", "they're really having to use the squad after all that's happened to them" etc etc ad nauseum. I'd love someone to come into the commentary box and say "well they should win because they're cheating".

[Hymenoptera]

Que Andy Goode.
I can't bare it either..

[wasps]

I feel like the broadcast companies and pundits are being a bit cagey.

Things are still in the balance and Saracens could still coming out of this on top.

As I've said before, history is often written by the victors and the career of a pundit could be defined by it too.

[Old Geezer]

I think that there is virtually no chance of HMRC allowing the players to be treated as "self employed" by Sarries or provided by their companies.  There are all the indications of employment.  They will have companies for their other rights earned outside of Sarries.  Maybe their England/ International  remuneration too.  I doubt they are employees of the RFU.

I refuse to watch them now, partly out of principle and partly because I cannot put out of my mind what cheats they have been and probably still are.  Intersting question as to how another club, if relegated this season, might feel and act if Sarries are found to have been cheating again this season. 

[Peej]

I still think Sarries will at least make the playoffs this season