Always a Wasp

Author Topic: What has changed?  (Read 7046 times)

Vespula Vulgaris

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2991
    • View Profile
What has changed?
« on: December 05, 2020, 06:57:26 PM »
This is the same squad that started post lockdown and couldn't lose whoever they put out.

The played with confidence and flair and were one dodgy throw away from winning the title.

Now they couldn't win at pass the parcel if Lee was on the music.

So what has changed? Is it the hangover from the final? Is it the missing players? Or something else.

This is as bad as the half season before Dai left.
Please consider supporting the forum in 2022! Donate Here

Heathen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3094
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2020, 07:07:07 PM »
Leadership for one. Hopefully we will see an improvement with our gang of 4 back from international duty.

You can’t help but look at what the Chiefs are doing. 3 games in, 15 points and looking nailed on to repeat the double.

HDAWG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1320
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2020, 07:07:30 PM »
Combination of missing players and final hangover. The confidence will come back but it'll take time.

NellyWellyWaspy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • Getting older a couple of minutes every day
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2020, 07:11:36 PM »
They have changed game tactics, to a more conservative style. No idea why. 'Play it safe' seems to be the motto. And 'safe' loses games.

The classic coaching dilemma. The team was allowed to go free, nothing to lose. So the coach then tries to turn that into a 'style of play', and then tinkers with it. So the players are no longer playing their natural game. The more it goes wrong, the more the coaches will tinker, and by Christmas we will be close to the bottom. With everything to lose.

Death by micro management. If Lee does not recognise what he and his coaches have done wrong, before Monday, then his job is doomed. Time to cut the players loose.

Lima, Jimmy and Jacob had a bad day because someone in the coaching team decided to change the way they play. Did an Eddie on them.

Shugs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2020, 07:30:20 PM »
I don't think much has changed. As such I don't think we're far away. I don't think overall we're anything like the team from phase 1 of last season. Our defence is still better, we can score tries and our scrum can dominate. We have some great academy talent emerging. So why aren't we winning? When Willis plays we get half a dozen turnovers a game. When he doesn't we get 1 or 2. Thats a factor. To an extent we're victims of our own success as we really miss the power of Launch and Will and the zip and creativity of Dan. Plus we're unnecessarily disrupted by Eddies absurd "apprentice" scheme. Then we have lots of injuries - the first 40 seconds summed up our luck on that front. No time for panic, as poor as today was we have the tools to be more than OK.

wasps

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2020, 08:23:13 PM »

Lack of power in the 2nd row without Joe or will
Lack of experience in the back row and no Willis turnovers
A weakened scrum probably made things trickier for Barbeary

3rd/4th choice scrum halves. Good players but lack experience
A rare off day for Jimmy's boot
Inexperience at 13, albeit one of the few highlights


Its the same squad, but a very different team at the moment

HDAWG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1320
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2020, 08:25:16 PM »
They have changed game tactics, to a more conservative style. No idea why. 'Play it safe' seems to be the motto. And 'safe' loses games.

The classic coaching dilemma. The team was allowed to go free, nothing to lose. So the coach then tries to turn that into a 'style of play', and then tinkers with it. So the players are no longer playing their natural game. The more it goes wrong, the more the coaches will tinker, and by Christmas we will be close to the bottom. With everything to lose.

Death by micro management. If Lee does not recognise what he and his coaches have done wrong, before Monday, then his job is doomed. Time to cut the players loose.

Lima, Jimmy and Jacob had a bad day because someone in the coaching team decided to change the way they play. Did an Eddie on them.

Sounds strikingly similar to what happened with Dai, but out of curiosity how did you arrive at this theory? I'm curious is all, don't necessarily disagree

Rossm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
  • Hey, Slow Down.
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2020, 09:01:17 PM »
The weather?
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

Vespula Vulgaris

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2991
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2020, 09:03:38 PM »
The weather?

It was hammering down in the final and we put on a much better show than we have for the last three matches.
Please consider supporting the forum in 2022! Donate Here

Rossm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
  • Hey, Slow Down.
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2020, 09:07:49 PM »
Yes. But we got there in the dry. We lost to Sale in sh*tty weather.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

Neils

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14744
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2020, 09:12:29 PM »
Maybe NWW has something.
Wasps had, along with Exeter,  the shortest break. Almost immediately we lost some senior players to a stupid international tournament. Then at times we have lost others without knowing who might come back. The team on Monday/ Tuesday with returnees is not the same from Thursday onwards. Are some players noses out of joint? Anyway at least some disruption. Add to that major injuries to some remaining senior players (eg Brad and Malakai). Apparent refereeing changes of interpretation. Wasps seemingly getting lumbered with junior officials regularly.
All seems to almost be a perfect storm. Young coaches who now see things going awry and having little experience of digging a team out of a rut.
The possible upturn could be a bit of time with the internationals returning and pulling the playing side together. They need to. You would hope the the injured senior players would be part of the discussions.

Rambling thoughts.
Let me tell you something cucumber

backdoc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1188
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2020, 10:07:15 PM »
With respect NWW "'Play it safe' seems to be the motto" is b*llocks.

The reverse is true.

Badly judged wafted passes to nowhere, hopeful kicks, offloads that are always going forwards etc

Defence not quite organised and oppressive enough, and forcing the attack partly because the lineout is going t*ts up.

The margins are quite fine, and we scored three tries today and four last week.

Shugs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2020, 10:20:22 PM »
With respect NWW "'Play it safe' seems to be the motto" is b*llocks.

The reverse is true.

Badly judged wafted passes to nowhere, hopeful kicks, offloads that are always going forwards etc

Defence not quite organised and oppressive enough, and forcing the attack partly because the lineout is going t*ts up.

The margins are quite fine, and we scored three tries today and four last week.
Yes, agree with this. I don't think we're playing it safe, I think we're trying to force things. It was ridiculous today the amount of times we threw obvious forward passes rather than just recycling. We got to the final last year by combining flair with patience. We've got to go back to that.

Hymenoptera

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
  • Trevor Leotas Twin
    • View Profile
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2020, 10:42:11 PM »
With respect NWW "'Play it safe' seems to be the motto" is b*llocks.

The reverse is true.

Badly judged wafted passes to nowhere, hopeful kicks, offloads that are always going forwards etc

Defence not quite organised and oppressive enough, and forcing the attack partly because the lineout is going t*ts up.

The margins are quite fine, and we scored three tries today and four last week.
I'm with you, playing safe we might have held onto the ball, what we were playing doesn't have a name yet.
We played one game later than Bath / Bristol. We can come up with a multitude of possible excuses when actually we there are no excuses.
I said last season we were punching above our weight, what I didn't realise was what we are producing now, is the level we are really at and that's a shock.Given i watch every game,  Im not being dramatic when I say on form we are the worst team in the prem.

Jac A

  • Guest
Re: What has changed?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2020, 11:17:32 PM »
I don’t know about others but I find it hard to be as objective as I’d like on the day of a game: there’s always a bit too much emotion that can cloud judgement and I’ll have only watched the game the once and may not have picked up on many things.

There seem to be a few different ideas floating around about what has happened so far this season and why we are not performing anything like the way we were only a few short weeks ago.

I partly agree with Nelly in how the freedom to express and play with fewer boundaries, the ‘chaos’ style was/is important to our ‘success’ (even if we didn’t actually win anything). But I have a couple of reservations about it. Firstly, it is important that a team has a style of play – a system – that means that players can drop in or out easily without causing major change or disruption to the team as a whole (see Chiefs for the most prominent and successful example in the GP). Just telling players to play their ‘natural game’ won’t work when there you have to deal with changes, particularly to play-makers. I think we were part of the way there, we did/do have a style and a system, it did/does encourage creativity and freedom but it is reliant on certain parts of our game and certain players and our missing key players is having a major impact on this – not just because they are good rugby players but because their style of play is so important to what we do well.

Ask anyone who’s taken an interest what has characterised Wasps since August and they’d probably say our intensity at the breakdown. Not necessarily just the jackal turnovers Willis has won, but just how hard we compete and hassle and force teams to commit players and slow their ball down. Launchbury and Rowlands in particular excel here. Will Rowlands loves getting stuck into a ruck and has been much better at controlling his discipline, then add Willis and Shields and from the backs, Fekitoa too. Off those players we had Shields for about 30 mins and Willis for a game (which we won). Ben Morris was good today but the last two games have seen the opposition have a much easier time at the breakdown. They’ve had quicker ball and therefore been able to run at a less structured defence. This isn’t an area we can just say – get better at disrupting the breakdown. It’s an art, because it’s so easy to get pinged, and for all his fantastic attributes, Alfie Barberry is not a natural backrow with the dark arts mastery of a Shields or Willis and we saw with a couple of seasons of Will Rowlands penalty magnetism that that level of disruption isn’t something Cardall or Gaskell can just pick up. Indeed, Gaskell tried a bit against Gloucester and was penalised repeatedly in the first half. This for me is the issue with our defence so far this season – and it hasn’t been bad, just not as good as it had been. Also, the loss of Fekitoa is important and I know that no team should be overly reliant on a player but he was the defensive lead and gave that intensity. We all saw the boost those big hits gave to the team and the surety of having him there. De Jong seemed to have been carrying a knock against Gloucester and Odogwu was good today, but it’s a new position for him.

In attack it’s similar. Robson was important to us as he combined quick ball with accuracy and a good kicking game. Vellacott was slow and Wolstenholme inaccurate – neither are bad players but neither is Robson. Robson’s kicking is a sometimes overlooked part of his game but it’s so key to his management and ability to change it up and relieve pressure etc and none of our other 9s have his ability. As an aside, I liked Porter when he came on today. At 10, Jacob had a stinker today. Not his first and won’t be his last but he does miss more touch-finders than he should and his ‘close to the line’ play-making won’t always work. What I think is key for these few matches is that he has had hardly any time with the team in training. I’m not going to attack Eddie Jones (who is doing what he needs to win games) but how much has Jacob been in training? It has been made clear that he is an important voice and a bit of a leader in training and team meetings and laying down what he wants. If he is not there in the week, it can be difficult to rehearse the set plays and first phase moves and just to get a feel for each other again. Both weeks he’s played, he’s come in from England training on the Wednesday/Thursday and then had a concussion in between. Also, without the back-five issues in the pack, ball hasn’t been as quick or clean and that makes a difference. The other issue with training is the amount of injuries. Obvioulsy we’re missing the internationals and Shields, Tom Willis, Mills but also Vailanu, Curran, Spink, Watson, Simonds, Miller who may not be in the 23 but provide a motivation and opposition in training – if there are only 25 or so people at training, the intensity may well be lower. Minor point but even little things build.

Of course confidence will be an issue. I don’t think, as I saw on one forum – either here or DW – that we are only playing at 20%, just that we are 5-10% below but that has an impact and when something doesn’t work, we maybe try too hard and force it the next time and that then also doesn’t work. Handling errors mount up and confidence drops. Lineouts are also an issue, Taylor’s throwing has been off but he’s had several different callers, plus Douglas doesn’t seem to be an option and missing the first line 2nd row and Shields won’t help. Teams are also wise to our strength in the scrum (see for example how Falcons got ball in and out as quick as possible and got Graham to break from the base as soon as the ball was in the 2nd row channel, not giving us a chance to push them back).

I don’t think we were as good as we were made out to be at the end of last season to be honest. We had some luck and we were high on confidence but we are no where near as bad as some people are making out at the moment. Form is a bit all over the place for most teams at the moment and I think there will be a lot of changes (except for Exeter at the top) over the next few months but I still expect us to be pushing for top 4 at the end of the year.