10.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Whilst Ford at Tigers, is class and a regular international, his current good season is at least part based upon being behind a monster and dominant pack that's providing front foot ball.

But then Ford was also world class when Leicester were 11th in the table and arguably single handedly kept them from being relegated.

Smith too was sensational in his first season at Quins yet they were towards bottom of the table.

Fly halves can shine in struggling teams, not always, but sometimes.

It is more complex than just looking at team results and league position. Ford has pretty much always had a stable pack in front of him, even if the team failed to win games. Tigers have arguably had one of the best scrummaging and lineout packs for years.

But, Smith is in a league of his own and has been since we first saw him. Players like him appear once in a blue moon.

[westwaleswasp]

I think we
A need a better set piece, especially the scrum. Crap ball makes great backs look like mugs.

B need to try Jacob at 12 when the injury list clears, we won't always get front foot ball he thrives on at 10 and he might have the vision to operate at 12 when we are under the cosh.

C need better midfield options who can play the ball, which means Mills plays or goes and is replaced one for one with someone who is sometimes  fit, and we replace Jimmy one for one when he eventually bows out. Tough ask.

D need to view Jacob as himself, not Danny 2. Few ever reached Cipriani's  heights, and Jacob won't match that. He might reach some of Danny's lows, which is why this thread exists. They are not the same player, they are very different personalities, with sometimes different weaknesses, the only thing in common is they both have brain fades that attract attention and are both 10s who play in traffic.

[HDAWG]

B need to try Jacob at 12 when the injury list clears, we won't always get front foot ball he thrives on at 10 and he might have the vision to operate at 12 when we are under the cosh.

C need better midfield options who can play the ball, which means Mills plays or goes and is replaced one for one with someone who is sometimes  fit, and we replace Jimmy one for one when he eventually bows out. Tough ask.

See it's been mentioned here Jacob's past as a 12 and that potentially leads to interesting combinations with Atkinson and Matthews, but is Jacob suitable at 12? He's not the tallest and defensively...

Seems more likely we need a 12 to support his decision making and management.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

B need to try Jacob at 12 when the injury list clears, we won't always get front foot ball he thrives on at 10 and he might have the vision to operate at 12 when we are under the cosh.

C need better midfield options who can play the ball, which means Mills plays or goes and is replaced one for one with someone who is sometimes  fit, and we replace Jimmy one for one when he eventually bows out. Tough ask.

See it's been mentioned here Jacob's past as a 12 and that potentially leads to interesting combinations with Atkinson and Matthews, but is Jacob suitable at 12? He's not the tallest and defensively...

Seems more likely we need a 12 to support his decision making and management.

At any level below Premiership, yes he could be a 12, but he is not a Premiership 12. His tackling is not good enough, and he doesn't have either the top or burst speed needed. Jimmy has that burst of speed and is fearless in the tackle. If Jacob is anything in a Premiership team, he is a 10.

So, yes we do need a decision making 12. But that is not Mills or Booj. I have seen no one in our academy who could be either. So, when Mills leaves, we have to be buying an SH type 12 in. And, is Fekitoa staying? His two years are up. I know Paolo will be back, but who else do we have? For me Crossdale was the first decent signing towards a bigger, faster back line.

[Shugs]

I don’t see Umaga as a 12 at all. He’s not shy of a tackle but his hits are not dominant enough. I think he’s a 10. Also, if we played him 12 who on earth do we play 10. It’s a big ask for Atkinson to be first up 10 at his age.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

I don’t see Umaga as a 12 at all. He’s not shy of a tackle but his hits are not dominant enough. I think he’s a 10. Also, if we played him 12 who on earth do we play 10. It’s a big ask for Atkinson to be first up 10 at his age.

Actually, daft as it may seem, Atkinson could be a good 12, he is young and likely to fill out some. I suspect he is faster than Jacob (running) and has a good tactical awareness.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Serious question, which is probably daft.  I felt that Jacob was getting closed down very quickly on Friday and it’s not new. Defences are targeting him and often succeeding.

I know he’s getting slow ball, but does he need to be a yard deeper? I appreciate it makes breaking the gain line harder has pushes the whole back line back, but it will give him a bit more decisions and distribution time. 

[NellyWellyWaspy]

No, he doesn't, can't, be deeper. The problem is that our pack is going backwards, was going backwards. It actually gives the opposition line speed about 2 metres of advantage. A stable scrum would be better, an advancing scrum even better. He and Porter, and the rest of the line were back pedalling way too much. When Alfie came on, when the other replacements came on, that stabilised, but way too late. The reverse also applied. When we were defending, our line had to step backwards, and that causes it to become disjointed and leave holes. There is a reason Tigers are so dominant this year. They push their opposition back.

We have had a few games where our defensive line kept pushing the opposition back, like against Chiefs. When we do that, our backs are unlocked in attack, and shut the opposition backs down in defence.

[wasps]

It's a fair point though.
If he's struggling to play good natural game behind a pack that's going backwards, what options does he have?

Does he continue to try to play his normal game and potentially struggle with the decision making under pressure

Or does he look at alternative solutions to alter his game, such as standing deeper.



It's all well and good us saying that it's the packs fault for going backwards and the scrum halfs fault for not being Robson, but when those circumstances occur, Umaga needs to look for alternatives that either keep the opposition guessing or that allows him the time to make the right decision with the right execution

[Vespula Vulgaris]

A dominant pack helps for sure, but I can't be the only person that remembers watching us dismantle Toulon when our pack was being bullied all over the pitch.

Ruaridh Jackson unlocked their attacking line and took them apart despite their clear forward dominance. It was the best game he ever played for us, but I don't think he was a better 10 that Jacob has the potential to be. He just isn't showing it right now.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

He has no options. Standing deeper will likely result in still getting hit, as the ball in longer distance flight is quite slow. He will likely get the ball at the same time as the tackler hits him. So, he has to take it and carry it in to contact. That starts to hurt after a few hits from a flanker or number 8. His best chance is to stand closer to the scrum half and go blind side, using the now collapsed scrum as cover, and hoof it over the top and down the line, or pray that the number 8 is on his shoulder to offload to.

I do not think he has been drilled in these panic stations types of plays, because I do not see him use them. I do not think he is naturally a 10, but his size dictates that he now is. Which is why he needs to learn fast, and explains why he is behind players of his age who have had years of experience. Somebody seriously ballsed up not always playing him at 10, as he should have been since he was a teenager. Playing out of natural position never ends well. Watching Alfie at school level, I always thought he should be an 8, so there he has ended up, but with years wasted as a centre and hooker.

There are other players I see in the academy who seem out of position. How often do we do this out of expediency to fill numbers hole, and then mess it up for the player? Tibo at fly half. Coaches are to blame. I wonder if Rekeiti Ma’asi White would be better also as a back rower, for example?

Will we bring Hartley forward to play 12 sooner than later? Could be.

[mike909]

Whilst Ford at Tigers, is class and a regular international, his current good season is at least part based upon being behind a monster and dominant pack that's providing front foot ball.

But then Ford was also world class when Leicester were 11th in the table and arguably single handedly kept them from being relegated.

Smith too was sensational in his first season at Quins yet they were towards bottom of the table.

Fly halves can shine in struggling teams, not always, but sometimes.

I agree with Nelly above in that it's not 100% one way or another. Tigers have been poor but were never going backwards as a pack. And Quins were poor as a team, but in 2017/18 Smith was playing inside Roberts and Marchant often enough and outside Care. That he's a star is not in doubt - but I'd guess Jacob would be looking a lot better playing regularly between an England 9, Wales and Lions 12 and England 13?

I do think we need to just take a moment and see how this plays out - sure sometimes a 10 can work wonders when their pack is getting trashed, but rarely when also in a makeshift backline that's never started together before.

[westwaleswasp]

B need to try Jacob at 12 when the injury list clears, we won't always get front foot ball he thrives on at 10 and he might have the vision to operate at 12 when we are under the cosh.

C need better midfield options who can play the ball, which means Mills plays or goes and is replaced one for one with someone who is sometimes  fit, and we replace Jimmy one for one when he eventually bows out. Tough ask.

See it's been mentioned here Jacob's past as a 12 and that potentially leads to interesting combinations with Atkinson and Matthews, but is Jacob suitable at 12? He's not the tallest and defensively...

Seems more likely we need a 12 to support his decision making and management.

You and others above may be right, I think we need to try him at 12 and have a look. If it works we get options. If it does not we are limited to Jacob at ten and a 12 like Jimmy, unless we sign a Dave Walder type 10 for the bench as we had back in the day when Danny was 10. So if we are out of contention  we can have a look for a couple of games. The other option is 15, which is a bit scary for someone with Jacob's issues with decision making.
I do think he might be a bit quicker than people realise, anyone have stats?

[Covkid40]

Most people seem agreed on most things, yes Jacob is talented, yes Jacob is struggling. Half the people think he will improve and half think he should have improved by now. As things stand financially we are not going to see high profile 10 come into the club and we will have to go with what we have, the question is how long do we keep saying it’s the forwards fault or the number 9’s fault or the number 12’s fault. I’ve seen games where players like Robson and Gopparth have almost single handedly drag teams to victories and Jacob needs to do the same. When things are bad and going wrong you need players to lead by example and drag the rest kicking and screaming into the fight, is that Jacob? Unfortunately I don’t believe it is, I hope I’m wrong I really do.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Jacob’s made The a rugby Magazine’s dream team for the last round.

https://twitter.com/therugbymag/status/1465425355896987655?s=21