More players for Eddie to Break

[Peej]

The argument about working with back up players only works if Eddie is coaching the England team for the BaaBaas game. Isn't it normally palmed off to one of the wider staff as development for them?

[mike909]

A good example of someone coming from nowhere in a World Cup year is Josh Lewsey. He was called up for the 2003 6 nations because there was no one left standing at fullback, having had no chance of being picked for years. He played brilliantly and then not only made the trip but played in and won the final.

That's why any chance to work with potential backup players is worth it. It might just throw up an unexpected gem. But that's my view and I don't expect anyone with a contrary opinion to change their mind.

Mate - this example is why I think having really inexperienced players and those early in their Prem career isn't likely to work out. Josh was known to England, had been on Tour of Hell and one of those development tours to North America in 2001 - and by 2003 had made dozens and dozens of Prem appearances for Briz and more importantly for us. He was 26 or 27 by RWC 2003 and had been in winning teams at Wasps playing in Europe and cups etc. He was just below what England preferred but came into the 2002 6Ns and was a success. By 2003 his England career - whilst intermittent - was in its 5th year. So I see someone like Mark Atkinson from Glaws as a prospect for a RWC next year. 116 Prem games and experienced and seen it all.

My issue with Jones' attempts to being players in without experience can be seen in playing George Martin in 2021 vs Ireland. He'd started three Prem games ever before being sent on vs Ireland who were doing a number on England. He's looking in decent form again, but was that really a good use of his time? Or England's. We were being made to look very silly in Ireland and whatever he might have as a v young player - even super stars like Itoje had started nearly 15 Prem games and a load of Euro Cup games before starting for England. And I see that level of experience as the exception

I'd love to be proven wrong and someone like Arundall wins the world cup for England, but has only started 2 Prem games and looks more like a squad member for 6Ns 2024.

[westwaleswasp]

Exactly on it there, Mike. Eddie seems to have long sight- the next cab off the rank is never the one he looks at. It is always the lustrous new one ten cabs back. Then when he gets to see it in action, he is invariably disappointed and rings for the broken he was riding in last week.

He just needs to understand that *everyone* in world coaching is right- and the established method works. That is why it is the established method. In this case it is simple, when you current crop are not working, you look at the next generation down who have played a couple of years of premiership rugby, not people who have started five minutes ago with a glorious U20 campaign and five prem starts. In short, the Premiership club rugby performances matter. More than Eddie's instinct.   

[HDAWG]

Chaps I know you lot hate Eddie, but he's not that bad.

Dude is a pot stirrer and is frustrating he sometimes sacrifices years for World Cup year, but he's also a bloody good tactician and a genuine innovator of the game. A lot of modern rugby is played the way it is partially because of his influence.

No denying he's a royal pain at times, but he is a very very good rugby brain. Sometimes us fans act like it's very simple, myself included, but it's not.

[hopwood]

Chaps I know you lot hate Eddie, but he's not that bad.

Dude is a pot stirrer and is frustrating he sometimes sacrifices years for World Cup year, but he's also a bloody good tactician and a genuine innovator of the game. A lot of modern rugby is played the way it is partially because of his influence.

No denying he's a royal pain at times, but he is a very very good rugby brain. Sometimes us fans act like it's very simple, myself included, but it's not.

I think he has an obsessive brain.
With a thousand rugby insights running through it.

I just feel he struggles to pick the most effective insights (less is more).
And I feel he struggles to effectively integrate and communicate these insights into a language everyone easily understands.
Otherwise England, with all their resources, would be playing better than they are.

[Shugs]

Chaps I know you lot hate Eddie, but he's not that bad.

Dude is a pot stirrer and is frustrating he sometimes sacrifices years for World Cup year, but he's also a bloody good tactician and a genuine innovator of the game. A lot of modern rugby is played the way it is partially because of his influence.

No denying he's a royal pain at times, but he is a very very good rugby brain. Sometimes us fans act like it's very simple, myself included, but it's not.

I don’t hate Jones. I just don’t rate him. In my opinion he’s a myth and is more of a chancer than innovator. Personally I think the England job is too big for him, he’s panicked and is now fully in overthinking/appoint loads of different people mode. England are suffering as he over complicated in search of a solution.

[mike909]

Chaps I know you lot hate Eddie, but he's not that bad.

Dude is a pot stirrer and is frustrating he sometimes sacrifices years for World Cup year, but he's also a bloody good tactician and a genuine innovator of the game. A lot of modern rugby is played the way it is partially because of his influence.

No denying he's a royal pain at times, but he is a very very good rugby brain. Sometimes us fans act like it's very simple, myself included, but it's not.

I don’t hate Jones. I just don’t rate him. In my opinion he’s a myth and is more of a chancer than innovator. Personally I think the England job is too big for him, he’s panicked and is now fully in overthinking/appoint loads of different people mode. England are suffering as he over complicated in search of a solution.

Ditto. I think Shugs has described matters well - "over complicated in search of a solution" Apparently there is a plan, but we've just played two of the worst ever 6Ns, and this is called out as some sort of "part of the journey"

England can always win any game. Pick a blend of EA's and Tigers' packs and a good kicker and we're competitive. But Jones' teams also have had - in addition to the big wins (Japan vs SA, still didn't qualify, England vs NZ, smashed in next game) some very odd games, series of games. These suggest a coach that has a bit of problem. We saw that in 2016 6Ns, failing to adapt to the breakdown esp vs Scotland and Wales, played like world beaters vs France - the plan apparently. And played so badly vs Ireland next game. Looking lost.

And this 6Ns, picking no pace to replace Watson and May (who are from the Lancaster days...) and no ball in hand gain line breakers and seemingly surprised we lack cutting edge and couldn't score.

So we may well go on and have a great rest of 2022. Let's hope so. But the results this calendar year suggest that's a challenge.

[Rossm]

I don't hate Jones, I just think he's not very good at his job. Why he had his contract extended is beyond me. I love rugby. I'm 74. The RWC comes round every 4 years. Depressing as it is, I sometimes wonder how many I have left. I strongly resent my time being stolen by an incompetent (IMO) like Jones.

[13thWarrior]

Above all else, I'm phenomenally pleased for Biyi Alo

[WonkyWasp]

What puzzles me is if EJ is so good, why does England keep nosing and why am I now supporting Wales?  Answers on a pinhead please.

[westwaleswasp]

Well Wales were not exactly the shining light this year, so I am going with massochism as the answer.
France are where its at!

[HDAWG]

Well Wales were not exactly the shining light this year, so I am going with massochism as the answer.
France are where its at!

+1, if there is a team I'd like to see win the World Cup after England, it's France.

[WonkyWasp]

yes, you're both right of course.   Can't find  it in me to support France tho'.  Apologies to Francophiles.  PS. . .  i meant 'losing' not 'nosing'!   Quelle twit.

[backdoc]

Wonky, after the loss in Clermont 2008 [dodgy TV camera, ball placed on Haskell's foot awarded] I spent an evening with Rafa. He planned to run his wife's Pharmacy business in the SW [6 Pharmacy shops] in his retirement. I explained that he could be a successful coach, and one day should lead his country to World Cup glory.

It is clearly all my fault that France are doing so well.

[WonkyWasp]

Spoiler

No, Backdoc  -  I'll let you (and Raf) off.  He's always been one of my  favourites.  BUT  I do think Shaun might have something to do with the French success, and it is well  deserved.