Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Eddie Jones  (Read 4706 times)

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NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2022, 04:30:44 PM »
He is right about the leadership thing. Good leaders come from adversity, and schools, state or private, no longer have that potential to foster. They believe that leaders are voted in 'democratically', and not by earning that role. This seen across society, where everyone believes they can succeed (which they may well be able to), but not that they have to earn it through thought and ingenuity, but instead because that they 'deserve' it. Inherently a rugby team without that top quality leadership is simply mediocre at best. I have long said that is where Wasps is, and has been for some time. The 'leadership' is not on the field, it is holding the buckets and water bottles on the sidelines, and that is just wrong.

Heathen

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2022, 09:21:53 PM »
Lol was an outstanding leader. IMHO much of that was gleaned at Ampleforth School.

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/324520/ampleforth-got-dallaglio-tuned-up-for-greatness/

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2022, 01:36:28 AM »
He is right about the leadership thing. Good leaders come from adversity, and schools, state or private, no longer have that potential to foster. They believe that leaders are voted in 'democratically', and not by earning that role. This seen across society, where everyone believes they can succeed (which they may well be able to), but not that they have to earn it through thought and ingenuity, but instead because that they 'deserve' it. Inherently a rugby team without that top quality leadership is simply mediocre at best. I have long said that is where Wasps is, and has been for some time. The 'leadership' is not on the field, it is holding the buckets and water bottles on the sidelines, and that is just wrong.

Just so that we are on the same page, you’re implying that the issue is a societal one across all classes and geographical areas?
If so, I’m in agreement.
A wave of over-protectionism has drifted into the water…and people (teachers, parents and pupils) are scared/ill prepared of being exposed/exposing others…to difficult circumstances.
Feelings are top of the agenda.
And whilst I’m all for protecting people from pain, there also needs to be some pain to know how to handle it.

Is that what you were alluding to also?

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2022, 08:23:17 AM »
He is right about the leadership thing. Good leaders come from adversity, and schools, state or private, no longer have that potential to foster. They believe that leaders are voted in 'democratically', and not by earning that role. This seen across society, where everyone believes they can succeed (which they may well be able to), but not that they have to earn it through thought and ingenuity, but instead because that they 'deserve' it. Inherently a rugby team without that top quality leadership is simply mediocre at best. I have long said that is where Wasps is, and has been for some time. The 'leadership' is not on the field, it is holding the buckets and water bottles on the sidelines, and that is just wrong.

Just so that we are on the same page, you’re implying that the issue is a societal one across all classes and geographical areas?
If so, I’m in agreement.
A wave of over-protectionism has drifted into the water…and people (teachers, parents and pupils) are scared/ill prepared of being exposed/exposing others…to difficult circumstances.
Feelings are top of the agenda.
And whilst I’m all for protecting people from pain, there also needs to be some pain to know how to handle it.

Is that what you were alluding to also?

Yes.

Shugs

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2022, 03:30:32 PM »
I think people are probably natural leaders or not irrespective of background. In the Premiership you have people like Genge - who I don’t rate as highly as some - but he seems the sort of captain people would play for. He’s a different type of leader to say, Dallaglio who could go all Churchiilian pre game if required. Take the point about routes into the game - needs to be far more school rugby but I really cant see where that is going to happen.

backdoc

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2022, 04:30:18 PM »
Leadership lost much of its cachet in the period WW!-2. Officers targeted etc. Captured troops had their officers slaughtered by the Russians.
In the Polish v Russia conflict 1919-1920, Polish troops when captured stripped to their underpants in freezing conditions to stop the Russians/Bolsheviks identifying the officers.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2022, 10:12:28 PM »
There is an American Star Trek mentality over the last fifty odd years - if you try hard enough it will work, your effort will reflect your output, and thus everyone will get out what they put in. The laws of physics say  no, but with the right grit and determination the laws of physics will be overcome in half the time you thought it would take.  It has been used on both sides of the political spectrum. As part of this Americanisation  leadership has become a set of teachable values, you can do academic courses on it, you can learn to be a leader and inspire people to achieve way beyond their potential. It is balls.
Truth is leadership is innate, every toss pot who tries to demonstrate they have it instantly shows that they don't, but the world is full of leadership teams with strategies x, y and z, most of which involve bollock naked emporers and buzz words du jour. It is all over industry, society, education. Everywhere.
I will wager most people here can tell who they would follow when the whistle blows and who they would not. Being a leader is not necessarily a good thing- history is full of inspirational leaders inspiring atrocities, but in terms of sport, leadership is something innate and to be treasured. I don't buy that the private school system is a problem, societal problems I can get, but pro sports players no longer clean the boots of the pros on their way up, and like everyone else, they are told and treated as if they are special at an age when they are most vulnerable to believing it. Many sports have the same issues in the UK.


Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2022, 06:22:56 AM »
Excellent post www.

Quote
and like everyone else, they are told and treated as if they are special at an age when they are most vulnerable to believing it.

Spot on.

backdoc

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2022, 11:19:27 AM »
WWW

The only thing to add to your excellent summary is that if unsuccesful they often get promoted out of the way.

[The CE of a very major London Paediatric Hospital started life as an unemployable trainee in Orthopaedics with no publications or research after a completed training program. 'But he is interested in management' went the cry]


Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2022, 01:50:01 PM »
WWW

The only thing to add to your excellent summary is that if unsuccesful they often get promoted out of the way.

[The CE of a very major London Paediatric Hospital started life as an unemployable trainee in Orthopaedics with no publications or research after a completed training program. 'But he is interested in management' went the cry]

A massive problem in the NHS, I worked with a number of incompetent managers who had been promoted out of clinical practice because that was easier and cheaper than firing them.
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NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2022, 02:31:43 PM »
The Peter Principle

Come on Dai Young

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2022, 02:43:36 PM »
On the leadership/captaincy fronts, I'm firmly of the opinion that Launchbury is a fantastic player and a real talisman for Wasps, but not captain material - like Chris Robshaw c. 2015, he's too much of a nice guy to lead effectively.

By contrast, Shields has the same sort of "edge" that Dallaglio had back in the day, and it's my hope that Blackett will appoint him to the captaincy role on a permanent basis from the coming season onwards.

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2022, 03:05:12 PM »
On the leadership/captaincy fronts, I'm firmly of the opinion that Launchbury is a fantastic player and a real talisman for Wasps, but not captain material - like Chris Robshaw c. 2015, he's too much of a nice guy to lead effectively.

By contrast, Shields has the same sort of "edge" that Dallaglio had back in the day, and it's my hope that Blackett will appoint him to the captaincy role on a permanent basis from the coming season onwards.

Very much agree with this. And, Brad of course, will probably not be away with England. I believe continuity is very important for a captain - other wise I would be banging the drum for Jack Willis.
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backdoc

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2022, 03:36:46 PM »
Agree about Shields

Tell Jack it is his in 2 years, and his brothers 2 years after that  8)