Eddie Jones

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Agree about Shields

Tell Jack it is his in 2 years, and his brothers 2 years after that 

+1 to all above. I have said it many times before.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

The Peter Principle

I don't think it applies in a lot of situations nowadays. Whenever there's a massive failure those in charge declare "lessons have been learned"* and carry on as if nothing has happened and continue to be promoted, unless its really serious then some innocent lower down the food chain gets to carry the can.

*I hate the phrase. Lessons have not been learned until new systems/processes/procedures or whatever is needed has been put in place and its been demonstrated to an independent party that the root cause of the problem would have been picked up early and the situation avoided. Too many organisations mark their own homework.

/rant

[WonkyWasp]

I think Tom W will be an even better captain than Jack might.  He reminds me  of Tom Rees, but hopefully not so fragile.  Hope very much that I'm around to see it!

[westwaleswasp]

WWW

The only thing to add to your excellent summary is that if unsuccesful they often get promoted out of the way.

[The CE of a very major London Paediatric Hospital started life as an unemployable trainee in Orthopaedics with no publications or research after a completed training program. 'But he is interested in management' went the cry]

This I so true, promotion is often used in that way, more so in large organisations, for obvious reasons.

[Come on Dai Young]

When is the captain for the forthcoming season usually announced?

[matelot22]

don't buy that the private school system is a problem, societal problems I can get, but pro sports players no longer clean the boots of the pros on their way up, and like everyone else, they are told and treated as if they are special at an age when they are most vulnerable to believing it. Many sports have the same issues in the UK.

100%, particularly football

[matelot22]

On the leadership/captaincy fronts, I'm firmly of the opinion that Launchbury is a fantastic player and a real talisman for Wasps, but not captain material - like Chris Robshaw c. 2015, he's too much of a nice guy to lead effectively.

By contrast, Shields has the same sort of "edge" that Dallaglio had back in the day, and it's my hope that Blackett will appoint him to the captaincy role on a permanent basis from the coming season onwards.

As someone who has taught leadership within the armed forces for 3 years, I feel I can comment on this subject with some conviction and authority.

You don't have to be edgy or hard nosed to be a good leader, there are different styles of leadership, which different people will respond more or less favourably, depending on their own character.

The key is knowing one's own strengths as a leader and, more vitally, knowing one's audience. That's where true team bonding comes in.

The ideal team will have several leaders of differing styles, eg the England 03 team, with Johnno's glowering menace and Lol's motivational presence to name but 2 examples. Some players would react to Johnno staring and think to themself that they need to up their game, others would be largely oblivious to it, same goes for Lol's pep talks.

Nature V nurture will always be debated, but there is a place for both.

[Come on Dai Young]

As someone who has taught leadership within the armed forces for 3 years, I feel I can comment on this subject with some conviction and authority.

You don't have to be edgy or hard nosed to be a good leader, there are different styles of leadership, which different people will respond more or less favourably, depending on their own character.

The key is knowing one's own strengths as a leader and, more vitally, knowing one's audience. That's where true team bonding comes in.

The ideal team will have several leaders of differing styles, eg the England 03 team, with Johnno's glowering menace and Lol's motivational presence to name but 2 examples. Some players would react to Johnno staring and think to themself that they need to up their game, others would be largely oblivious to it, same goes for Lol's pep talks.

Nature V nurture will always be debated, but there is a place for both.

You're almost certainly correct, and I'm happy to defer to your expertise on this front - my comments had a very narrow focus indeed, and pertain specifically to the Launchbury vs. Shields debate.

"Edge" is obviously an abstract and subjective concept here, and for my money it comes in different flavours; Dallaglio and Johnson both had it, insofar as I'm concerned, but it manifested itself differently in each individual.

Launchbury, for all his *many* positive attributes as a player and talisman, doesn't (IMO, of course). Shields, on the other hand, does.

To use an old-school rugby term, I see "edge" as involving knowledge and mastery of the so-called "dark arts."

Launchbury, as lovely a person as he seems to be, strikes me as the kind of guy for whom Dark Arts is a subject taught at Hogwarts 

[matelot22]

[q
You're almost certainly correct, and I'm happy to defer to your expertise on this front - my comments had a very narrow focus indeed, and pertain specifically to the Launchbury vs. Shields debate.

"Edge" is obviously an abstract and subjective concept here, and for my money it comes in different flavours; Dallaglio and Johnson both had it, insofar as I'm concerned, but it manifested itself differently in each individual.

Launchbury, for all his *many* positive attributes as a player and talisman, doesn't (IMO, of course). Shields, on the other hand, does.

To use an old-school rugby term, I see "edge" as involving knowledge and mastery of the so-called "dark arts."

Launchbury, as lovely a person as he seems to be, strikes me as the kind of guy for whom Dark Arts is a subject taught at Hogwarts 

Haha, that tickled me!

Thanks for clarity ref specifically appertaining to Joe. I think as a player he can get up to mischief (yes, dark arts), as the son of a marine, I expect he was taught to fight dirty, fight to win, from a very early age, but I would agree that this doesn't come over in his leadership style, where he is more the strong and silent type, and I expect more loved by the players for his lead by example than respected by them rants or uplifting monologues.

Again, to use historical examples, Wellington was respected by his men, but not loved. He was cold, aloof and what we would call a micro manager today, but his men often said they would far rather he lead them into battle than anyone else.

By contrast Nelson was adored by his men, he delegated well, inspired and led more by example of bravery, he wore his best dress frock coat at Trafalgar despite the advice that it would make him a target from snipers. That's how I see Joe.

[Shugs]

The captaincy thing has assumed a different dimension in that they are the communicator with the referee. It’s almost the key role that a captain has now. For me, although it pains me to say it, we’re not “aggressive” enough at that. Shields is better than Launchbury but it’s almost to the point where our captain needs to be the best at working with the ref. Robson is good at it as is Stooke.

[matelot22]

The captaincy thing has assumed a different dimension in that they are the communicator with the referee. It’s almost the key role that a captain has now. For me, although it pains me to say it, we’re not “aggressive” enough at that. Shields is better than Launchbury but it’s almost to the point where our captain needs to be the best at working with the ref. Robson is good at it as is Stooke.

Agree with that, but again I'd point to the need for more leaders on the pitch and agree that Joe isn't necessarily the best at the aspect you've described here

[westwaleswasp]

Pretty sure there are many ways to lead, it is hard to define. But on the other side it is easy to see who is not a leader. If you have to continually demonstrate your authority, or worry about how you are perceived from without the group, you have not got it.

[mike909]

Interesting postings above. I look at leadership in terms of person management. I have quite wide experience within specialist teams for work (dull audit shit!) but the same person management tactics that I used to get my last team to operate across a range of subject areas whilst supporting audit staff and reporting to clients, wasn't dissimilar to what I did as a decent level cricket captain.

I do think that many people who think they are "leaders" are most often wrong - indeed - I left my last full time job because of having to work for someone who was so dysfunctional that they lost their entire specialist finance team.....I left before I lost it!

In terms of what makes a good leader, I'm not convinced by "from adversity" or similar. What worked for me - and I came from an v ordinary background - was making sure I had buy in for targets (to precis) both collectively and individually and I made sure that I didn't make people nervous to give something a go or to ask if not clear.

My worst leadership/management experiences were with people you didn't trust to back you if things went wrong - yet didn't like to be asked if unclear....and blamed you....

I did a Management MSc - the focus only partly on "management" but it did provide a starting point for my career going forwards. My sporting "career" also provided a good source of learning - as I might suffer all the slings and arrows in one afternoon....Which was sometimes painful but often a benefit going forwards.

As for the article by Jones - I did encounter problems with recruitment over the last 20 years especially as I found there were too many (for example) graduates who'd done post grad accounting/traineeships but found the interview requirement to precis a short case study too hard...as it required thinking outside the box. I'm not sure about the application to the rugby field - not sure players coming through are limited (per Jones) but he'll see many more players than I'd ever see!

Re Wasps - I'd support Shields for Captain. I think he ought to be playing for England, but that seems gone. But he not only leads by example - he comes across (from his time here and from watching the 'Canes) as a good communicator and someone you'd be prepared to buy into as a person and a player. I like the George Smith style of leader, I'm no great fan of the shouty BS merchants - whom I'd probably rail against. I like MJ has England Capt  - I felt he might be tough, but was clear about what he wanted and got buy in and was a good communicator, as a player.....(not as a coach!)

[matelot22]

Hi Mike909, agree with some of what you say, but I think we have to accept that leadership and management are different qualities.

As for what works for you, see my earlier comments, about knowing your own strengths as well as knowing your audience. I think being exposed to adversity regularly can help in a rugby context, much as it does in a military environment.

The military aim exercises and training to simulate battle stress as much as possible to harden personnel to those effects, one such example being one of the leadership courses we do, the participants do an all night orienteering course then on return, instead of getting their head down, they are put through a day of practical leadership tasks. Not the same as being shot at, but focussing the mind and body when tired and hungry does produce stress hormones and get people used to (or not as the case may be) operating under those conditions.

[Heathen]

There is an damning article by Owen Slot in the Times this morning. When I get a chance later, I will C&P it.