Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Big News  (Read 32213 times)

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Big News
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2022, 05:13:31 PM »
That’s some hares you’ve just set running there, NWW. I don’t think wuss fans will be happy, Sudbury would be interesting but don’t see it.

The bottom lines are these.

Worcester long since came to the end of the line with regard to additional funds from their owners.

I do not know who 'owns' Sixways, but my guess is that it is mortgaged to the hilt. Thus, to buy the club, somebody has to buy the mortgage. My guess is, right now, if someone approached the mortgage holder with the right deal, that person could pull the rug from under the club and leave it with nowhere to play. The current owners would then be left with a relatively worthless brand and some expensive player contracts. It would all fold in a matter of minutes. The 'brand' would be worth as much as London Welsh is these days. Anybody care to remember that debacle?

Wasps are little better off. Whoever offers to clear the bond debts gets the CBS Arena, leaving Wasps as a debt ridden homeless club.

Leicester are also up for sale, also with large debts, but there I think the owner separately owns the stadium?

The fact is, nobody is stepping up to offer the money, and until the deal is sweet enough, nobody will. Wasps are at a real risk of losing their ground back to CCFC.

Times are hard, and will get harder, and the money men will not give a fig about fans.

Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Big News
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2022, 05:45:23 PM »
Nelly, you are way off the mark. I can assure you the bond situation is far from lost.
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westwaleswasp

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Re: Big News
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2022, 05:49:31 PM »
Those at the RFU might welcome a trimming to 9 clubs say and then 5 or 6 for a continental league they can get their snouts into. Sarries, Tigers, Quins, Glaws, Bath, Bris would do them.

Of course, that could all end in another Hundred, a competition  you could not pay me to watch, and whose very existence has me itching to cancel Sky or refuse my BBC fee. Still I can see cvc happy  with a European league, even if no bugger in Wales would watch.



wasps

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Re: Big News
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2022, 06:14:03 PM »
This is absolutely terrible news and I feel for all supporters of the club.


I know the club is solely responsible for ensuring it has a sustainable business model, but I feel that the PRL should be ashamed.


They don't seem interested in making the game more profitable or reducing costs.
Instead, they allow teams to flagrantly abuse the rules so as to increase the running costs of all clubs who need to compete.


Yes, I'm turning this into another salary cap thread, but for years all clubs have had to stretch further beyond their means to try to stay in touch with others..... This is the end result


Neither premier rugby, nor the RFU care about the clubs unless they're vying for honours in Europe or supplying numerous players to the international side.... And it stinks.


Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Big News
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2022, 06:20:50 PM »
This is absolutely terrible news and I feel for all supporters of the club.


I know the club is solely responsible for ensuring it has a sustainable business model, but I feel that the PRL should be ashamed.


They don't seem interested in making the game more profitable or reducing costs.
Instead, they allow teams to flagrantly abuse the rules so as to increase the running costs of all clubs who need to compete.


Yes, I'm turning this into another salary cap thread, but for years all clubs have had to stretch further beyond their means to try to stay in touch with others..... This is the end result


Neither premier rugby, nor the RFU care about the clubs unless they're vying for honours in Europe or supplying numerous players to the international side.... And it stinks.

100% agree.
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Shugs

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Re: Big News
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2022, 07:35:15 PM »
That’s some hares you’ve just set running there, NWW. I don’t think wuss fans will be happy, Sudbury would be interesting but don’t see it.

The bottom lines are these.

Worcester long since came to the end of the line with regard to additional funds from their owners.

I do not know who 'owns' Sixways, but my guess is that it is mortgaged to the hilt. Thus, to buy the club, somebody has to buy the mortgage. My guess is, right now, if someone approached the mortgage holder with the right deal, that person could pull the rug from under the club and leave it with nowhere to play. The current owners would then be left with a relatively worthless brand and some expensive player contracts. It would all fold in a matter of minutes. The 'brand' would be worth as much as London Welsh is these days. Anybody care to remember that debacle?

Wasps are little better off. Whoever offers to clear the bond debts gets the CBS Arena, leaving Wasps as a debt ridden homeless club.

Leicester are also up for sale, also with large debts, but there I think the owner separately owns the stadium?

The fact is, nobody is stepping up to offer the money, and until the deal is sweet enough, nobody will. Wasps are at a real risk of losing their ground back to CCFC.

Times are hard, and will get harder, and the money men will not give a fig about fans.
NWW I don’t see that scenario. Whoever re-finances won’t own the CBS. They may well have first charge on it as security for the loan but that only comes into play if the loan or it’s covenants default. In amongst all the noise on the bond it’s always struck me that it is just finer detail that is outstanding and possibly another source has become involved. I’m sure many of us have been through these processes. Solicitors for multiple parties will be involved and the whole thing will take an inordinate amount of time. Running concurrently to this I imagine we’ve been advised that rather than keep giving periodic statements we should formally change the repayment date (obviously in the hands of bond holders). I expect they’ll agree as further info will accompany the consent solicitation. I may be wrong but that’s my gut feel.

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Big News
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2022, 08:46:32 PM »
Nelly, you are way off the mark. I can assure you the bond situation is far from lost.

Yes, but you know me. Straw dolls in the air. Makes for a bit of fun in the close silly season. Unlike others here, I am not a 'sports' fan. I like Rugby. these days. Period.

ardenwasp

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Re: Big News
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2022, 12:59:45 AM »
I really do hope they survive. This is terrible news for Wuss and the wider rugby family. Thinking of all their fans, especially the kids - how will they understand the loss of the team they support so dearly.
Let’s hope they can turn it around, but the whole league and business model is not working for anyone. Not sure what CVC has brought to the table, but unless they input some more cash soon they may not have much of an investment left (or are they hoping to ‘trim’ the premiership for a euro superleague)?

For now though all thoughts with Wuss.

WonkyWasp

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Re: Big News
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2022, 10:27:30 AM »
Plus 1

Agosto blond snowpack

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Re: Big News
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2022, 03:42:43 PM »
That’s some hares you’ve just set running there, NWW. I don’t think wuss fans will be happy, Sudbury would be interesting but don’t see it.

The bottom lines are these.

Worcester long since came to the end of the line with regard to additional funds from their owners.

I do not know who 'owns' Sixways, but my guess is that it is mortgaged to the hilt. Thus, to buy the club, somebody has to buy the mortgage. My guess is, right now, if someone approached the mortgage holder with the right deal, that person could pull the rug from under the club and leave it with nowhere to play. The current owners would then be left with a relatively worthless brand and some expensive player contracts. It would all fold in a matter of minutes. The 'brand' would be worth as much as London Welsh is these days. Anybody care to remember that debacle?

Wasps are little better off. Whoever offers to clear the bond debts gets the CBS Arena, leaving Wasps as a debt ridden homeless club.

Leicester are also up for sale, also with large debts, but there I think the owner separately owns the stadium?

The fact is, nobody is stepping up to offer the money, and until the deal is sweet enough, nobody will. Wasps are at a real risk of losing their ground back to CCFC.

Times are hard, and will get harder, and the money men will not give a fig about fans.

The fact that Richardson has now sold all shares in the training ground on the day of the Bond Default is hardly a co-incidence despite the nonsense comment from Wasps when challenged on it

Thats asset protection before default risk.

Wasps RFC are on a sub lease to the Head Lease aren't they? I cannot believe he is not looking at ways of selling the Head Lease to another commercial entity - The council wouldn't object to assignment and for all parties it would be the best outcome
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COYW15

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Re: Big News
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2022, 07:39:00 PM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/08/18/wasps-rugby-club-chased-hmrc-unpaid-tax-bill/?utm_content=rugby&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1660840108

Wasps Rugby club being chased by HMRC over unpaid tax bill

Premiership club pursued after not paying bill and comes after it missed £35m bond scheme repayment date

Wasps are being pursued by HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill.

After Telegraph Sport revealed Worcester Warriors had been hit by a winding-up petition from HMRC, their midlands rivals were said to be another Premiership club being chased by the taxman.

Their chief executive, Stephen Vaughan, did not respond to repeated requests for comment, while HMRC declined to comment.

Unlike Worcester, HMRC is not currently seeking the liquidation of Wasps, whose owner, Derek Richardson, was forced to deny last week that the club was to enter administration amid suggestions to that effect on social media.

No Premiership club has gone bankrupt since 1999 but the coronavirus pandemic left some on the brink, with a Government bailout worth tens of millions of pounds seemingly not enough to ensure their survival.

Fears over Wasps’s future were raised in May after they announced a delay in repaying those to have invested in a £35 million bond scheme that helped bankroll their 2014 purchase of a 250-year lease on the Coventry Building Society Arena.

Those concerns were compounded the following month when they requested £13 million in public money from the West Midlands Combined Authority (WMCA) to help pay stadium costs.

The most recent set of accounts for Wasps Holdings, covering the year ending June 2021, showed it recorded a loss of £18.5 million over a two-year period and had net current liabilities of £54.7 million.

The bondholder debt was initially secured against the value of the stadium, which the accounts valued at £52.4 million.

Wasps are the only Premiership club whose Companies House filings do not include notification of a charge being issued against them for taking out a multi-million-pound loan under the Government’s Covid-19 Sports Winter Survival Package.

But Telegraph Sport has been told they did borrow money under the scheme and that, like other teams, their loan is a secured one.

At the weekend, Telegraph Sport revealed Wasps were facing possible legal action from Coventry City after their Coventry Building Society Arena tenants were forced to postpone a second home match this season over an “unsafe and unplayable” pitch.

On Wednesday, both clubs announced “extensive work” would take place on the playing surface this week and that a “six-figure investment” would be made into pitch improvements amid the postponement of a third Coventry home game this Saturday.

WMCA told Telegraph Sport Wasps’s request for public money was still under consideration, while Coventry City Council, which owns to freehold to the arena, said: “The city council, including through the chief executive and senior officers, has regular communication and dialogue with many businesses and this has been particularly important throughout the pandemic as the economic context has been incredibly challenging.

“Wasps have been one of these businesses.”

Worcester on Thursday night remained in dialogue with HMRC over its own unpaid bill, having previously said: “The club owners and board are fully committed to preserving top-flight professional rugby in Worcester and have been working on solutions to secure the financial future of Worcester Warriors and to pay outstanding tax owed to HMRC.

“A solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. Unfortunately, there have been unavoidable delays beyond the club’s control to the final tasks required to complete the funding.

“Having kept HMRC fully apprised of the situation, we are disappointed that they have taken the decision to issue a winding-up petition.”

westwaleswasp

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Re: Big News
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2022, 07:51:13 PM »
Just to say as well, in Wales we saw trimming of 5 regions to 4 when Warriors got the axe. Plus regionalisation when clubs like Ebbw Vale were swallowed up. And now we might see trimming further by all accounts.
Club rugby just does not seem stable in the pro era anywhere outside of Ireland and maybe France. Look what happened to the super rugby teams.
Fans seem to be the last consideration- it is cricket's "you will now support X, where X is a random selection of players for a month who play for totally different counties" attitude, but in reverse. Borders? Celtic Warriors? Jaguares? etc.
It is time the RFU stepped up, got their *****ing snouts out the trough, and started to get the money to the pro clubs and the championship clubs who provide the players needed for Eddie's crusade.I can take the best players being away with England. I can take having to buy Sky to watch tours. I can even take Stuart Barnes' one man global warming hot air producing machine and Amazon prime's attempt to split it all further and nick free to air stuff from C4. What I cannot get is how badly our game is run when the money is there, and blue chip sponsors line up to sponser the international game which is (or should be) thriving. 



Vespula Vulgaris

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Re: Big News
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2022, 08:57:33 PM »
This is interesting, it's a lot of words that amount to very little. Of course it could be we're about to go under but I doubt it.

Let's look at what they actually say.

Quote
Wasps are being pursued by HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill.

After Telegraph Sport revealed Worcester Warriors had been hit by a winding-up petition from HMRC, their midlands rivals were said to be another Premiership club being chased by the taxman.

OK, so we are "said to be" late with a payment to HMRC. Its certainly possible we are, but said yo be is a little vague.

I'd like to go out on a limb and suggest that being late with payments to HMRC is pretty common, and that the majority if not all premiership clubs stretch the bounds of paying "on time" as much as they can.

Quote
Their chief executive, Stephen Vaughan, did not respond to repeated requests for comment, while HMRC declined to comment.

We sent a couple of emails to generic addresses and didn't hear anything back from either.

Quote
Unlike Worcester, HMRC is not currently seeking the liquidation of Wasps,

So this isn't actually a big problem

Quote
whose owner, Derek Richardson, was forced to deny last week that the club was to enter administration amid suggestions to that effect on social media.

There's a lot of bollocks on social media which has already been commented on but we want to bring it up again as it lends credence to this not very detailed article.

Quote
No Premiership club has gone bankrupt since 1999 but the coronavirus pandemic left some on the brink, with a Government bailout worth tens of millions of pounds seemingly not enough to ensure their survival.

Rugby is currently struggling en masses, but let's ignore that and focus on the club people are already talking about because that'll fuel the fires and get us more advertising revenue.

In fact now let's rehash all the current crap yo try to make it look like we have a case.

Blah blah fucking blah.

All it actually says is that we're struggling, we are in regular communication with the council, and we had a tiff with CCFC about the pitch.

Shoddy journalism...
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Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: Big News
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2022, 09:32:57 PM »
Quote
their midlands rivals were said to be another Premiership club being chased by the taxman.

Classic click bait.

Find a story that is factual and then use a statement in the passive voice to associate another story that is currently making headlines for other reasons.

Every finance director worth their bonus will be managing cash flow and pushing creditors to the limit. Maybe it’s unethical, especially where small businesses are concerned, but it’s a fact if life.

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Big News
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2022, 09:43:48 PM »
If you are late paying HMRC, there is a set scale penalty system. There is no discussion, no negotiation. It isn't like other bills where you can stretch or delay payment by a day, a week, or a month. There is simply a due date. Miss it, there is a penalty. The longer you miss it by, and the greater the amount you fail to pay, the greater the penalty. So, there is no 'management'. If you have enough money to pay them, you do. My experience in insolvency work tells me that when a business gets behind paying HMRC, that is just before the last nail is hammered in to the coffin. That isn't to say that every organisation that gets behind ends there, but it is something that every financial director tries to avoid.