Uncomfortable question

[Shugs]

In all the analysis on the financial disaster that has done for us it isn’t being that widely acknowledged that as a rugby team Wasps seem to have been royally shafted. Lwasp and backdoc touched on it yesterday and I’ve been angry about it since Monday’s announcement. Why were the stadium business and the rugby team separated? Vaughan gave an unsatisfactory answer in his podcast. But the bottom line seems to me to be the rugby side was squashed under a load of debt mainly relating to an asset it doesn’t own. The stadium business has or will go into admin separately as people want to buy it. Whereas the rugby side has done so separately eliminating any hope of a rescue combined with the arena. I’m sure it could be argued that from a hard nosed business perspective this is the right thing to do. But I have a nagging feeling Wasps, the rugby team has carried the can for possibly more than it should have done and has then been cast aside as it adds no value to any sale. Happy if someone more financially savvy can put my mind at rest.

[Neils]

You will have got my drift over the week that I think we are completely finished. There is absolutely nothing left in the Wasps bucket bar history and a lot of unemployed people. I cannot see anyone coming in to rescue Wasps and to "Pheonix" like rise again. I hope I am wrong but someone with big loads of dosh would have to step forward quickly and I don't think such a person is around. THe new owners of the CBSA might like to have us as a tenant but we don't actually exist anymore (thanks RFU/PRL/Baxter).

So, yes, I agree with you.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

You will have got my drift over the week that I think we are completely finished. There is absolutely nothing left in the Wasps bucket bar history and a lot of unemployed people. I cannot see anyone coming in to rescue Wasps and to "Pheonix" like rise again. I hope I am wrong but someone with big loads of dosh would have to step forward quickly and I don't think such a person is around. THe new owners of the CBSA might like to have us as a tenant but we don't actually exist anymore (thanks RFU/PRL/Baxter).

So, yes, I agree with you.

Without going back and listening I'm sure Stephen Vaughn said that he was talking to someone and that it needs to be sorted by the end of the week as time is running out.

I agree with you and I've said before I don't understand what they are trying to sell. I don't remember seeing TM symbols on anything so what's to stop someone just using the name and building the team again?

The only thing I can think of is that they wouldn't get RFU recognition and wouldn't be allowed to start in the Championship, but I don't think that's a given if if the club is bought from the administrator.

[Shugs]

BIND - take your points. My question was more around where is the debt housed. Vaughan has quoted a figure of over £100m. If that sits against Wasps Holdings then the rugby side has paid the price lock stock and barrel. If it sits against the company that owns the stadium, ACL, I understand that. Maybe some sits against both - from what’s been said in the press I’m not entirely sure.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

BIND - take your points. My question was more around where is the debt housed. Vaughan has quoted a figure of over £100m. If that sits against Wasps Holdings then the rugby side has paid the price lock stock and barrel. If it sits against the company that owns the stadium, ACL, I understand that. Maybe some sits against both - from what’s been said in the press I’m not entirely sure.

I take you're point and it looks to be a reasonable one. I suspect if there's any financial shenanigans the Administrator will be asking questions.

[Westy68]

Every day that goes by the more I think we were given a load of bullshit for a very long time

[NellyWellyWaspy]

BIND - take your points. My question was more around where is the debt housed. Vaughan has quoted a figure of over £100m. If that sits against Wasps Holdings then the rugby side has paid the price lock stock and barrel. If it sits against the company that owns the stadium, ACL, I understand that. Maybe some sits against both - from what’s been said in the press I’m not entirely sure.

My guess would be, 40% stadium, 20% owed by the playing side to Derek, and 40% owed by the playing side to others. Meaning 60% could be written off entirely, or at least to some significant extent.

[Shugs]

Or conversely means that the rugby side has been shafted to make the more saleable asset goes for a higher price.

[Heathen]

The bond was issued by Wasps Finance, a wholly owned entity of Wasps Holding. So the bond was 100% Wasps Holdings liability. The servicing of the bond was the responsibility of Wasps Holdings as well. So add the interest at £16M+ and you soon begin to see how the debt piled up. Throw in salaries of 167 employees, Derek's investment plus other things and it easy to see how we ended up in the thick brown stuff.

I understand that the playing side was breaking even pre Covid, but once Covid started, a slope that was slippery to start with, became an alpine black run.

[WonkyWasp]

Thank you for explaining that so well.  Even I could nearly understand it and that's a minor miracle.

[Shugs]

The bond was issued by Wasps Finance, a wholly owned entity of Wasps Holding. So the bond was 100% Wasps Holdings liability. The servicing of the bond was the responsibility of Wasps Holdings as well. So add the interest at £16M+ and you soon begin to see how the debt piled up. Throw in salaries of 167 employees, Derek's investment plus other things and it easy to see how we ended up in the thick brown stuff.

I understand that the playing side was breaking even pre Covid, but once Covid started, a slope that was slippery to start with, became an alpine black run.

And that’s exactly my point Heathen. The rugby side carried the debt for the stadium purchase. The stadium has now been separated to make it saleable. So, as Wasps rugby team, haven’t we been torpedoed by the debt linked to an asset we don’t own. And an asset which will now be sold for money we have no access to?

[westwaleswasp]

If Derek gets his money back and we don't have a club then I am afraid he won't be fondly remembered. If he doesn't get his money back and we don't have a club then I suspect he will. It is probably that simple.

[andermt]

If Derek gets his money back and we don't have a club then I am afraid he won't be fondly remembered. If he doesn't get his money back and we don't have a club then I suspect he will. It is probably that simple.

I'm sorry and I know this won't be popular but I think Derek has shafted the club in the end.

There is lots of comment and statements flying around but if we take most of it at face value, the £35M is believed to be £20M for the stadium and £15M for Derek.
I get that he invested and wanted it back, so can, to a point, understand that, however, that should have happened when the 'company' was profitable not when it was still losing £4-5M a year, but there are 2 key bits I don't get.

Yes the bond was held by Wasps Holdings, but the Bond was raised using the stadium as collateral as I understand we were all led to believe, therefore how can it be separate to Wasps Holdings? So if ACL and the stadium gets sold, lets say for £25M, then that is potentially £25M pure profit for Derek as all the purchase cost is the bond debt which gets written off against Wasps Holdings and we lose the team.

2nd point, the training ground, again, taking into account the statements made at the time, the money used to pay for it was the money given to Wasps from CVC, again, money that was given to 'the club' used to purchase a facility that now sits outside the club. Was the facility sold, or was it partially funded elsewhere and they now have total control of it, whichever way you look at it a nice expensive facility again obtained almost for free.

The Worcester owners have, quite rightly, come in for a load of stick but it feels to me that Derek is getting off scott free all because he 'saved Wasps' in the past. I'm not seeing much difference in the outcomes at the moment.

[hookender]

Think getting ahead of ourselves here. Remember that it is only Wasps holdings that is in administration at the moment. ACL (wholly owned subsidiary)has only this week given notice of admin this week . It’s ACL that owns the stadium which is securing the bond. So still trying to sell it as a going concern before ends up in administration. How much gets paid for it is a guessing game . Might only get £30 million which means lots of people lose.

[Shugs]

Think getting ahead of ourselves here. Remember that it is only Wasps holdings that is in administration at the moment. ACL (wholly owned subsidiary)has only this week given notice of admin this week . It’s ACL that owns the stadium which is securing the bond. So still trying to sell it as a going concern before ends up in administration. How much gets paid for it is a guessing game . Might only get £30 million which means lots of people lose.

Hookender - you are correct ACZl owns the stadium. But is the bond debt owned by ACL as well or Wasps Holdings?