Hope?

[Shugs]

Yes, would be nice to see some sort of holding statement or progress report - although understand that may be impossible. Apart from anything else it would be nice to see players coming to us rather than the constant outpouring of talent we’re currently having to bear. Updates on here are really welcome as I know loads of fans who are scanning for every bit of info they can get.

[westwaleswasp]

It can't expand to two French style leagues. The fans are not there. They had their opportunity to expand it by the RFU expanding the championship and opening the chequebook when times were good ages back. Lack of support for the Pirates and Doncasters of this world, lack of exposure lead to what we have now. They did not step up and we ended up with a genuine "premier" league where the gap was much, much bigger to the next level down than in the soccer equivalent.
In short, we need to be in the top league to exist over a period of time. The championship is not a long term solution for a professional Wasps, or, indeed anyone of our ilk.

[InBetweenWasp]

It can't expand to two French style leagues. The fans are not there.

Twickenham virtually sells-out every International game, despite the highest ever ticket prices and a team lately playing some pretty uninspiring rugby.  Big Game has 50k+ every game (into it's 14th year now I think).  Falcons played at St James park in 2018 (I think it was) and got a 30k+ attendance.  We got spanked at Twickenham by Bath for the St Georges Day game with nearly 40k attending.  Irish sell out their St Patricks Day game every year.

These aren’t the same sets of supporters creating these big crowds.  In fact, i'd argue that very few 'Club' fans would go to one of these games if their team wasn't playing in it.

So I think broadly speaking, the numbers/underlying interest is there across the country. 

The big question is how do you convert the more casual fans into fans that come to multiple games per season, or buy a Season Ticket?

In reality, the teams that need a decent uplift in bums-in-seats are (were) us, Warriors, Falcons, Sharks and Irish.  A relatively small uplift for the rest would see constant sell-outs, or the ability to increase stadia to cope with an uplift.

[Shugs]

Two teams of ten means pain for someone as if you include us and Wuss there are 25 teams. So who drops out. For me it would need to be two up and two down. To make the game sustainable the salary cap needs to come down so that there’s not such a disparity between those trying to survive outside of having a sugar daddy. Get rid of the prem cup and have a knockout competition for the 20 clubs. No international / club crossover and only 1 marquee player per club.

[westwaleswasp]

The fans are not there.
The one off games get a few extra casual fans of the clubs concerned, and a few more casual bystanders.
It is that simple. You can't convert who you have already converted. The St Georges' day game is a case in point - two teams with 10 k grounds get 40 k - each bringing an extra 5- 10 k for a one off, not unreasonable for clubs.  A few more of the internationals only brigade and you are at 40k with a big marketing effort talking about George Harrison et al.


Old Trafford sees 75 k or so every week to watch Man United.  They are not the same 75 k. Quite the opposite, but none if them are Liverpool or Spurs fans. Bath don't have 10k fans and neither did we at AP. We had 8 k per match, but our fans who came to some games were much greater. If you want to get 20 teams with full stadia you need not 20 x 10 k worth of fans, but 20 x 30 k, because for most fans weekly attendance is actually a non starter. In our current fiscal climate more so. People on 30 k salaries just don't have the 200 gbp to spend on transport and tix and sundries per month with two hone games in. Those with season tix are the exception to the rule.

[baldpaul101]

there is no simple solution to not having enough fans/money

Lower salary cap will impact players, both financially & physically (with a smaller squad players will get less rest). Look how many decent players can't get a job currently?
It will also force players over seas & that will impact the England squad, which is the only part of Rugby that makes any decent income. Unless the rules on picking English based players are relaxed but then that will mean even more players leaving the prem thus devaluing it further. That in turn will mean lower TV & sponsorship income & driving fans away even more.
Prem games are actually extremely competitive (although I fully expect Sarries to win it) so the product is quite exciting & full houses at clubs that can get them seem to have a good atmosphere. How many people would want to watch a game where top sides batter ex championship sides?
Another by product of the tighter salary cap will be those clubs with sugar daddies wanting to split & set up their own Euro league with the Irish provinces & the top french clubs, thus further devaluing all domestic competitions & probably forcing the different unions to ban the players from internationals.

Difficult decisions to be made, just hope someone with enough imagination can be involved so they can come up with the least worse plan!

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Paul

I agree. Most Premiership clubs could now only rely on season ticket sales of maybe 1-2k, and attendance somewhere in the region of 3-10k per game. But that does not make the game viable without the sugar daddies. Premiership ground capacities now do not need to be bigger than 5-15k. What many seem to ignore is, this is not 2018 any longer. Recession is here, times are very hard, and will only get harder for many folks. Those attending are getting older every year and more infirm, there is not enough youth coming in to watch the game. As you get older, you attend less games. And Covid has removed some potential fans from physically attending a game altogether. I have attended only 2 games of any sort since the Covid lockdown started, both were local club games. I used to go at least once a week. I cannot be alone in this change.

I also agree that a breakaway core of 5 or 6 clubs is entirely possible, but that may end up being with the agreement of the RFU, leaving about 20 clubs in the semi-pro sub tier, but I do wonder how many of those will survive. Some must be in a parlous financial state.

Is the game dying? I don't think so, but it is becoming a less mainstream sport. Certainly less than it perceives itself to be. For the young players coming through, this is now a vocation, not a career. Almost back to where the game was in the early 90s. With a stronger youth grass roots structure, and with the very welcome addition of the ladies game.

[westwaleswasp]

The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.

[Neils]

The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.

Prime was excellent- should move more there.

[jamestaylor002]

Rugby, I believe, have a few fundamental issues:

1. The laws of the game are not consistently applied. Even we, as seasoned rugby fans, scratch our heads at some decisions so how do we expect newcomers to understand the game?
2. Risks associated with concussion. I believe we are ahead of many sports in this regard, but more can be done. I imagine this does stop younger people from participating.
3. English professional rugby believes it's much bigger than it really is. Players wages are getting higher (I'm not saying it's undeserved) but income does not match the demand - unless you are a club with a mega rich owner.

I don't know what the right way forward is, but if certain premiership clubs do decide to breakaway, it will only further weaken professional rugby. The RFU won't mind so long as their precious internationals aren't affected. But the clubs may soon realise that even this breakaway league isn't the solution they are looking for.

As for putting rugby behind paywalls, I think it largely depends on what paywall that is. If it's for Sky/BT Sport, then I'd agree that it goes against any efforts trying to expand the game as people would have to go out of their way to subscribe (and it costs a lot of money). However, getting it onto a service like Prime isn't so bad because a lot of people already have Prime (or know somebody who does - though this isn't me advocating sharing passwords  ). Even then, Prime offer 30 day trials for those who want to dip in for a few of the Autumn Nations games one season. The one good thing about Prime is that they leave the games on demand, meaning you don't have to worry about forgetting to record if you miss the game.

[Gaz]

Definitely more scope for making the game more exciting, and easier to understand.

I also think that the money is not there to support two professional leagues, but I'd add a 'yet' to that statement.

If you assume there will be a Wasps and Worcester in the Championship next year, plus say a relegated London Irish to get to the 10 team prem, then that instantly makes the Championship more competitive and attractive. Especially if you also consider there are other competitive teams, Ealing, Jersey, etc.

To support and nurture this, the championship needs more visibility, better profile, maybe free to air live games even if just online. But overall more publicity and profile - I'm not a media expert.

Also, further limit premiership salary caps (don't increase them), remove barriers to promotion, make it a sporting meritocracy and not based on whether you could hypothetically get 10,000 fans, etc, and go for a two up two down promotion/relegation system, and over time, say 5-10 years, the money and players trickle down, interest in the championship grows, and the gap closes.

This is speculation, but if you don't try you will never know. And at the moment, the game is shrinking.

If the money clubs insist on chasing bigger budgets and more glamour and share of the prize then the above will never happen. It's in this that we need a strong RFU, to actually lower budgets and make the competition more equitable, for the longer term health of the game.

[baldpaul101]

The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.

But how to exploit that golden egg if they don't go where the money is (pay per view)?
Also remember that the RFU is non-profit organisation, yes, there are some amateur members of the RFU council with their noses in the trough but the RFU spends the vast majority of any profit it makes on the game, both professional & grass roots.

[westwaleswasp]

The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.

Prime was excellent- should move more there.

If you want a game to be a minority sport, take it off terrestrial TV. 

[westwaleswasp]

The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.

But how to exploit that golden egg if they don't go where the money is (pay per view)?
Also remember that the RFU is non-profit organisation, yes, there are some amateur members of the RFU council with their noses in the trough but the RFU spends the vast majority of any profit it makes on the game, both professional & grass roots.

You have identified the question, there are no easy answers, as every single exclusive Prime or otherwise match will shrink the game in the long run. The answer has to be a split model with games on TV and others off to Pay TV, a bit like BT and C4.
Sadly, non profit is all blown away by stories like this.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/cash-strapped-rfu-have-done-the-unthinkable-refusing-to-cut-expenses-budget-of-55-member-council/

[wasps]

The RFU had a golden egg- those internationals need to fund the elite club game, not the bloody gin cabinet. Internationals buried on Prime do not help long term either. They need to be on terrestrial, even if not all of them.

Prime was excellent- should move more there.

If you want a game to be a minority sport, take it off terrestrial TV.

the 2 biggest sports in this country aren't on terrestrial tv