England

[Bloke in North Dorset]

If I was to give investment advice, which I'm not, I'd go long in whitewash shares.

England: RFU to conduct review into 'disappointing' autumn series

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63772071

[DGP Wasp]

Even if they conclude that Eddie has to go (unlikely) and they manage to get a top class replacement such as Gatland before the 6N (more unlikely), given the massive personnel changes needed in the team, especially almost an entire back division, and the lack of opportunity given to and therefore experience gained by those who would logically come in, it's just too late to expect anyone (even WG) to be able to turn things around by the WC. That ship sailed about 12 months ago, or after the 2022 6N at best.

[WonkyWasp]

Agreed, but at least it would be a step in the right direction instead of those steps in the wrong direction.  Of course, re-jigging the whole RFU would be even better.

[Neils]

How good is Gatland without Shaun.

[Shugs]

The RFU are going to review themselves basically. Wonder how that will go?

[backdoc]

The RFU are going to review themselves basically. Wonder how that will go?

Hopefully they will disappear up their own anal orifices.

[WonkyWasp]

Oozlum Bird.  (see Google)

[JonnyD]

As SCW said about previous reviews, the personnel have always been kept anonymous, in his opinion because, of a conflict of interest, ie, they’re essentially reviewing themselves or it’ll be a bunch of people who have no right/experience/credentials to be reviewing Jones and the team.
Another pointless exercise - although Jones is now on less of a payout if he’s sacked.

Could work wonders, a caretaker manager type of momentum shift for us before the World Cup.

[baldpaul101]

given the massive personnel changes needed in the team

Don't agree. Its not the players, its the game plan that needs to change. Remember eddie took Lancasters failures & won a grand slam.
Look at the difference in Wasps when Dai left & Quinns when Gustard went?
The core of the team would remain under a new coach IMO, especially this close to the world cup

[Mellie]

Rugby tonight showed some stats regarding Smith and Farrell and how they and their clubs perform to indicate something not right about England.

The glaring one is England's ruck speed, which is woeful. I've mentioned it on this board before, adding why would you pick Youngs who slows it down even more. I've also said it was a failing with Wasps earlier this season.

When space is at a premium the quicker it can be utilised the more chance there is of creating something positive. Just relying on brute force to batter through the opposition only works if you are considerably stronger than them. No chance therefore against SA and consequently result is a foregone conclusion.

[DGP Wasp]

given the massive personnel changes needed in the team

Don't agree. Its not the players, its the game plan that needs to change. Remember eddie took Lancasters failures & won a grand slam.
Look at the difference in Wasps when Dai left & Quinns when Gustard went?
The core of the team would remain under a new coach IMO, especially this close to the world cup

Quote out of context, where I did say that a change of coach now would be too late, for exactly those reasons.

But how much of the core of the current side would you retain for the opening 6N match if you got the gig tomorrow?

Tight 5 OK.  Reshuffle needed in places, but no more.
Lawes obviously will come back once fit.  Hill has to go.  Would love to see Launch recalled.

Back row.  Billy needs to go, and Itoje to lock, so there are 2 spots up for grabs there.  Jack and Simmonds in the current squad, but who else?

It's in the backs where I think they need more significant upheaval.
If we're sticking with Smith at 10, then we need to select a back line that will play to his strengths, and the current lot doesn't.
Ditch Youngs, start Mitchell and then perm 2 from JVP, Randall, Care and Quirke to train with the squad and provide bench cover.  All of the above have been dicked around by EJ to a greater or lesser degree (although at least he didn't immediately jettison JVP after the ABs game).
Need some invention in the centres (ie, definitely not Farrell and Manu), and some pace on the wings (ie, definitely not Nowell and May).  Aside from Slade, we're going to need to look beyond the current squad for centres (Lawrence, Daly?).  Watson is the obvious wing choice given his experience, then one of the young speedsters in the Prem on the other wing (Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Arundell etc)
No major issue with Steward at FB, although would prefer Malins.

[InBetweenWasp]

I actually think are only real problem position is 12.  We have play Farrell or Smith - not both - then have Slade, Lawrence and Daly to pick from at 13. 

Broadly speaking, if we play people in their preferred positions we’ve got a good enough squad.  I’d jettison Hill as he brings more curses than cures.  Joe’s maul-defence is a real differentiator, but I’d happily have Ribbans playing in Hill’s place.

Back row has bags of talent, we just need to find the balance.  I’d like to see Jack for his ability to win turnovers again as a huge differentiator.  Earl has been tearing up trees and is perhaps the best bench option.  Simmonds still isn’t impressing me much.  He’s a bit of an all-rounder.  Do you stick with Billy at 8, Dombrant? Or go something like Jack, Curry, Earl as a 6,7,8? - Perhaps a bit lightweight.

In the backs, we’re stocked with healthy talent at 9, 10, 13 and on the Wing.  Steward looks great at FB but then who do you play if he’s injured - Daly, or Watson or a wildcard like Arundell?

I think a coach that doesn’t exhaust them in training so much and a bit more free-thinking.  Gats would fit short-term, but think he’ll end up back in Wales for the RWC although not sure how well that might work out.

Having listened to Jim and Goodey on The Rugby Pod the other week, if we could land Scott Robertson I’d be on-board with that for the RWC and let Eddie go early. 

[mike909]

Several issues suggest themselves, but this is what I see - not just from the AI's but from the last two 6Ns which are amongst the worst ever (Like 2018...)

a) Even when not 100% sure of what they are trying to do, England have always been able to fall back on a solid set piece and good game management (often connected - if in doubt, kick it out...)
b) Even in amateur days, we did seem to recognise that pace out wide (Rory etc) could turn any game - but seem to being actively avoiding selecting pace.....
c) We did even back at those days manage players better. They used to have other jobs a lot of the time - but that 91 side (and before) had a very decent idea of what it was trying to do and bought in to the plan. We also didn't seem to have a policy of "the head coaches way or the highway" Still stunned at some of the stories
d) 2021 6Ns was poor, out-thought and seemingly trying to bring players in when barely Prem players. People (like Lawrence and Martin) who we don't pick now they are showing form and have experience....
e) 2022 showed that we'd learned little if anything and were lucky not to lose 4 - Wales started playing about 5 mins too late...and demonstrated some edge.....Our plan looked like running into tacklers and hoping

So we've managed from an ordinary but not terrible 6Ns 2020,following two decent games at the RWC, to becoming less than the sum of our parts. And that's with access to a similar/same pool of players and some younger guns that needed encouragement and support.....

So the conclusion is  - given the past - that Jones has a shelf life and that's gone. His shelf life from previous asks can be varied - Aus 2003 finalists, sacked in 2005.....after 8 of 9 losses....Reds, never in date...

It does seem that the coach and the players are not on the same page - but the risk for any dissenting players is great. NZStuff's conclusion was that Jones eventually loses the changing room. It seems that's been the case since playing Scotland at home in 6Ns 2021.....and not looking like we were at the races.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

...

Broadly speaking, if we play people in their preferred positions we’ve got a good enough squad. 

...

Absolutely.

There's less room for error the further up the competition leagues you go and at the very top small errors get punished swiftly and as players tire they lose concentration and are more likely to make errors.

Playing in their regular position means that muscle memory takes over from tired brains, not having to concentrate on what to do in unusual positions puts lets strain on brain in the first place.

Obviously some players adapt better than others, Brad is great across the back row and can even stop gap the 2nd row, for example. On the other hand I don't think Itoje should be playing in the back row, he's good but I don't think international standard and there's a lot better than him.
 

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Good post, Mike.

b) Even in amateur days, we did seem to recognise that pace out wide (Rory etc) could turn any game - but seem to being actively avoiding selecting pace.....

And its not just that raw pace beats defenders, it scares the living daylights out of them and makes them hesitant and more prone to mistakes or draws other defenders in leaving holes for others to exploit.