Always a Wasp

Author Topic: England  (Read 17341 times)

westwaleswasp

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Re: England
« Reply #180 on: November 28, 2022, 04:23:03 PM »
May has pace, but that injury and subsequent recovery seems....suspicious. Was he actually fit?

Shugs

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Re: England
« Reply #181 on: December 05, 2022, 08:06:42 PM »
Widespread speculation surfacing that its Jones out Borthwick in in the morning.

Heathen

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Re: England
« Reply #182 on: December 05, 2022, 09:21:04 PM »
Widespread speculation surfacing that its Jones out Borthwick in in the morning.

Chris Foy is running with it.

HDAWG

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Re: England
« Reply #183 on: December 05, 2022, 09:32:41 PM »
I've seen it too. I'm torn on Borthwick, and would've preferred Robertson.

westwaleswasp

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Re: England
« Reply #184 on: December 05, 2022, 09:43:15 PM »
At least he has some Prem experience. Not being an arse is a start.

Andywasp50

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Re: England
« Reply #185 on: December 05, 2022, 10:35:45 PM »
Borthwick is another uninspiring choice, steeped the EAs kick and smash tactics, but at least he's a change from acerbic Eddie.

Would have been nice to have seen Robertson get the job and a change of direction.

wasps

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Re: England
« Reply #186 on: December 06, 2022, 07:34:51 AM »
The RFU have always said that they'll replace Eddie with an English coach.


In fact, I believe that was always one of his targets. He has to identify English talent to replace him.
I'm sure he'd say that's why he kept going through so many coaches

JonnyD

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Re: England
« Reply #187 on: December 06, 2022, 08:48:37 AM »
It’s a shame it’s not Robertson, it would have been good to see a fresh pair of eyes come in without an agenda or preference to any players, would have been good to see us play ever so slightly like the Crusaders too.

Wouldn’t have though Borthwick would have felt his job at Leicester was done but guess you can’t turn the opportunity down.
Can’t see many risks being taken under his tenure. Lots of set piece, box kicks from Ben Youngs being chased by backs who don’t really play to a game plan to suit their abilities.

We will see

mike909

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Re: England
« Reply #188 on: December 06, 2022, 08:52:02 AM »
It's one of those matters where on reflection, you're not 100% sure you want what you wished for.

However, assuming Jones is replaced - I do think I might be able to support England - especially if the players look like they are - to quote a Gatland piece - round pegs in round holes. It was clear from the Prem game highlights I glanced at this weekend that Tigers and Saints had better back threes than the one England selected...Our team had better backrows than the ones England selected. It just seemed that Jones' England was trying to be clever for the sake of it. Rather than looking for a team that can win in more than one way.

Whilst the players have been away with England, Sale have probably had one of the better centre partnerships in Sam Hill (ex U-20's and Exeter) and Sam James and would probably work in a pragmatic team better than Sale's "star" player....

So any new coach really doesn't need to do that much, but selecting a back three of (say) Malins, Watson and Steward, a real backrow in familiar positions and a front row than can scrum provides focus like having a new coach tends to anyway....

I guess we'll find out. But I'd be glad if the coaching team was clearly on the same page and not always looking over their shoulder for the Jones "under the bus" moment....

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: England
« Reply #189 on: December 06, 2022, 09:05:24 AM »
Whilst I cannot warm to the personality of Jones, nor the micromanagement of the game by him and his team, I do not see Borthwick as a significant improvement in matters.

HDAWG

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Re: England
« Reply #190 on: December 06, 2022, 09:16:55 AM »
Whilst I cannot warm to the personality of Jones, nor the micromanagement of the game by him and his team, I do not see Borthwick as a significant improvement in matters.

+1

baldpaul101

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Re: England
« Reply #191 on: December 06, 2022, 09:30:08 AM »
Whilst not a huge Borthwick fan, he took a terrible Tigers side that should have been relegated & made them champions, so he did something right

wycombewasp

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Re: England
« Reply #192 on: December 06, 2022, 09:44:51 AM »
Yes as I remember he got them playing smash and grab boring rugby, not something Id'e want to watch, but  who knows with the pick of English players it may turn out OK, I wont hold my breath,

InBetweenWasp

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Re: England
« Reply #193 on: December 06, 2022, 10:01:23 AM »
Whilst I cannot warm to the personality of Jones, nor the micromanagement of the game by him and his team, I do not see Borthwick as a significant improvement in matters.

I'm torn on the whole scenario overall.  The lack of openness around why they feel like they're struggling for form is extremely frustrating.  They don't need to give the keys to the Kingdom tactically, but at least demonstrate that for the 80,000 people and sponsors putting not insignificant sums into the game that you're aware you've underperformed and how/why.

Genge almost seemed surprised on last weeks The Good, The Bad and The Rugby Pod that the England win rate in 2022 was 42%.  I'm not quite sure what he thought it would be?

Eddie says the results are his fault, Ellis says it's the players letting Eddie down and that they operate in a player-led environment.  He speaks about Eddie giving them several different ways to play depending on the opposition and that the playing group are able to use those on the pitch to change the game. 

But, for 2022, watching the games it's been the same boring, predictable one-out type rugby or heavy kick-chase other than the last 10 mins or so of the first test vs Australia (when Oz were down to 14 and then 13 men) or the last 10 mins against NZ (who had a man in the bin during that period) and when both games were largely out of sight and England had nothing to lose.

Are the differences so nuanced that pundits and fans would struggle to notice? Or are they just not being used?

Genge is a forthright, hardworking old-fashioned honest bloke but weirdly seemed to suggest that their form had actually been pretty good - 'world beaters' for scoring 20 points in 9 minutes against the All Blacks was something he referenced.  He spoke about hating losing; but there was nothing to suggest the playing group recognised the uninspiring, predictable way that they're playing despite the talent available.

mike909

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Re: England
« Reply #194 on: December 06, 2022, 11:16:58 AM »
Jones sacked it seems from Telegraph Rugby and others across twitter