England

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Shortlist of four for me would be Farrell senior, McFarland from Ulster, Scott Robertson and Diamond. But I’ll take Borthwick as he’s not Eddie.

Forgot Diamond was out there. He would make a good choice to get the job done.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Diamond won’t be offered the job for the reason Shaun wasn’t, too forthright.

[Andywasp50]

All I can see is two things from this. The first one is a scandalous lack of leadership, strategy, understanding and direction by the RFU, cemented by their determination to crush and destroy us and Worcs with today’s ruling and deadline. The game’s governing body is demonstrating wilful neglect of their duties and Sweeney should quit - in any other organisation or business his position would be untenable - sacking Jones two years too late, letting professional clubs go to the wall, being ripped to shreds by MPs in a public enquiry and now leaving their flagship side high a dry a few months before the World Cup.

Secondly, much the same it’s down to Sweeney, but Borthwick will be just a continuation of the Jones style (without the abuse). A Farrell dominated kick and chase outfit that will plod along with no vision, style or entertainment value.

I’d even prefer bigmouth Baxter over Borthwick, but I just can’t support an England team that represents the RFU  - an organisation that put it’s foot on our head when we were drowning and needed help, and a league that is dominated by corrupt owners calling the shots.

[Shugs]

Agree with you Andy - it’s all gone a bit sour. I do hope Sweeney called Jones in and gave him his list of “work ons”. Win more games? Play some rugby? Stop being an arse?

[Nrgee]

All I can see is two things from this. The first one is a scandalous lack of leadership, strategy, understanding and direction by the RFU, cemented by their determination to crush and destroy us and Worcs with today’s ruling and deadline. The game’s governing body is demonstrating wilful neglect of their duties and Sweeney should quit - in any other organisation or business his position would be untenable - sacking Jones two years too late, letting professional clubs go to the wall, being ripped to shreds by MPs in a public enquiry and now leaving their flagship side high a dry a few months before the World Cup.

Secondly, much the same it’s down to Sweeney, but Borthwick will be just a continuation of the Jones style (without the abuse). A Farrell dominated kick and chase outfit that will plod along with no vision, style or entertainment value.

I’d even prefer bigmouth Baxter over Borthwick, but I just can’t support an England team that represents the RFU  - an organisation that put it’s foot on our head when we were drowning and needed help, and a league that is dominated by corrupt owners calling the shots.

+1

[Skippy]

The only reason why the RFU has acted so ‘decisively’ after all this time is because Slippery Bill is under severe pressure, is trying to cover his own arse and trying to remain employed.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Baxter just been given a contract extension. That's either two fingers to England or making the statement that if the RFU want him they're going to pay top dollar to buy him out of his contract.

[DGP Wasp]

Baxter just been given a contract extension. That's either two fingers to England or making the statement that if the RFU want him they're going to pay top dollar to buy him out of his contract.

Enough to pay for a new hotel?

[mike909]

I sometimes listen to the Rugby Analyst and the Rugby Pod off YT. The two themes that came out of the Jones removal were respectively a) That he was prone to gaslighting and b) that players seemed to play worse for England and were often stressed by the experience

The RA was referring to press confs where Jones or selected players asserted that England were "close" "going in the right direction" etc. When the reality was that England were not demonstrating anything like a team on the verge of a breakthrough and that the claim to be "planning for the future" was time limited. Something you might say after the dull Autumn Cup and the dire 2021 6Ns, but not after another rubbish 6Ns and being stuffed by a part depleted SA team.

The Rugby Pod and Andy Goode was very interesting as he must know many of the key England players from EA Towers...and yet was quite scathing of the Jones regime and the impact on the players.

A question, what do all these coaches have in common? "Neal Hatley, Scott Wisemantel, Simon Amor, Jason Ryles, John Mitchell and Anthony Seibold" They've all left posts since the RWC in '19.

The Rugby Pod people were saying just how much players from the other countries enjoyed going to "camp" in stark contrast to those going to England camps. Like Joe Simpson said in that interview - the players all came back stressed to hell.

Purely from a management POV - the set up demonstrates softness and lack of ability from the RFU/employer side. They were prepared to take Jones' promises on the RWC and allow their HQ cash cow to wither in terms of results and entertainment. From the coaching level, the set up (and losses of coaches) smacked of a controlling relationship where your inputs were not valued. And a set up where dissent was discouraged such that Group Think  was prevalent  - without challenge to ideas. And without challenge - you end up playing like England did vs SA....Narrow of thought and play and predictable of action.

Personally, I'd have backed removing him after the 2021 6Ns and probably said similar at the time. But he had to go pre Aussie tour so that someone like Razor could have taken the squad on and had a tour, the AI's and the 6Ns to prepare. As it is, it's probably the worst of all worlds...

[westwaleswasp]

Piece in the Guardian was rather supportive, trotting out the usual meaningless 73 pc bullshit and adding new levels of pointlessness to statistics that Jones has almost won as many matches as his 3 predecessors combined.

His win ratio in the 6n is actually lower than Lancasters by some margin and very similar to Johnson and Ashton.

Also said you don't win 18 games by accident.
To which the obvious answer is 'how else do manage to get 18 successive games with none  against the world's top team and just one at home against the depleted second?'. Followed by 'how in the name of all that is holy does Uruguay count?'

I do hope we don't get revisionist balls over this. After his fine first two years we have had five years of shit. One title, 3 terrible finishes, and poor records v Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and middling to meh one vs SA. Only Australia have kept Eddie in credit, whilst NZ a respectable 1/1/1 record isn't bad. Almost enough to keep him, but let us face it, the player and coach turnover is horrific.

[HDAWG]

I do hope we don't get revisionist balls over this. After his fine first two years we have had five years of shit. One title, 3 terrible finishes, and poor records v Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and middling to meh one vs SA. Only Australia have kept Eddie in credit, whilst NZ a respectable 1/1/1 record isn't bad. Almost enough to keep him, but let us face it, the player and coach turnover is horrific.

5 bad years? I'd argue 4.

2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022 have been bad to watch irrespective of winning a 6N. 2019 was the best I've seen us play under Eddie, and although we didn't win anything, was probably my favourite year.

Also our Wales records aren't too bad tbf, only lost to them 2 or 3 times if memory serves (and that's including friendlies), also good record against France.

Scotland was poor though.

[JF]

Yesterday's Times had several articles which broadly said: he's a maverick, some players loved him, some hated him, we won a lot if games, then we didn't.

Standard stuff for a club coach but do you want players to be unhappy about playing for their country? It should be a huge honour, something to look forward to beforehand and to look back on with pride and pleasure afterwards.

[mike909]

Yesterday's Times had several articles which broadly said: he's a maverick, some players loved him, some hated him, we won a lot if games, then we didn't.

Standard stuff for a club coach but do you want players to be unhappy about playing for their country? It should be a huge honour, something to look forward to beforehand and to look back on with pride and pleasure afterwards.

I do hope we don't get too much revisionism as Jones took a squad - based around the England U-20's RWC team and got new coach bounce to win the GS and then a run that stopped rather quickly.  2018 was v poor and he was prob saved by Fiver winning a test in SA. 2019 started with a good win v Ireland but England only had four good games all year if you include beating the Aussies in the RWC.

Then it was dull or worse. The Autumn Cup was a waste - we kicked vs Georgia every time we could - 33 times from hand.....and then the 2021 6Ns showed a lack of ambition and selection (picking EA's from the Championship ffs) as did the 2022 6Ns.

A set up that worked whilst based on what was there already - and failed to develop - the SA game was clear evidence of that....

England have always been able to win any game - what a successful coach needs to do is add to that. Jones got England playing with those "adds" for 2 seasons and a couple of RWC games. But most of the other time, England were out thought (c.f 6Ns 2021) and seemed to fail player development. Why was a SR playing 6 vs SA when George Martin was available. A player played when not ready (2021 6Ns - after 6 Prem games ffs) and now ignored when in good form....for Tigers too. Ditto Lawrence, ditto Freeman and Watson is now fit and they played May and Nowell...etc etc.

England lost their way during the 2020 6Ns but no one at the RFU at the time wanted to believe that was it...

[westwaleswasp]

I do hope we don't get revisionist balls over this. After his fine first two years we have had five years of shit. One title, 3 terrible finishes, and poor records v Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and middling to meh one vs SA. Only Australia have kept Eddie in credit, whilst NZ a respectable 1/1/1 record isn't bad. Almost enough to keep him, but let us face it, the player and coach turnover is horrific.

5 bad years? I'd argue 4.

2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022 have been bad to watch irrespective of winning a 6N. 2019 was the best I've seen us play under Eddie, and although we didn't win anything, was probably my favourite year.

Also our Wales records aren't too bad tbf, only lost to them 2 or 3 times if memory serves (and that's including friendlies), also good record against France.

Scotland was poor though.

Depends on who you compare to- SCW's France record, or Lancasters', or Johnson's etc. Since Jones's 73% is trotted out as better than SCW, it is worth noting Lancaster's superior record vs France and Wales.