Spoiler: Eng v Scot

[Andywasp50]

England lost the game when Ben Youngs came on and decided to kick the ball away at every opportunity. We were only any good when we decided to try and keep the ball in hand and build phases, ultimately pressing hard enough to get over the line and earn a lead we never looked like protecting.

The defence was embarrassing - players dropping off one on one tackles like their hands were greased. Malins is great going forward but he really doesn?t like tackling and slaps at players instead - real pre-Madonna stuff. Ben Curry kept falling off tackles around the breakdown and Steward doesn?t have much of a defensive game - and the RFU have the arrogance to ignore Shaun Edwards!!?

The set piece was poor - line outs in particular - and restarts horrendous. At times the England players chased the ball like kids and left huge spaces across the field which a better team would have exploited to the full. Scotland were good but no great shakes.

I think it?s time Sweeney fell on his sword. This will be a third fifth place finish he?s overseen alongside ours and Worcs demise plus the farcical tackling below the waist scandal. How insulting is it to the Prem that both 9s came from the same club - neither of them that convincing? On top of that, the Saracen?s contingent have a dull edge because they are so used to playing at 85% as they canter to the title they aren?t up to the intensity of test rugby any more - a story obvious by looking at the league table. Farrell is a 50/50 kicker now and his only contributions were slightly late hits on Russell.

English rugby is now in such a woeful state I feel like the professional domestic game is finished. Kick and chase the main tactic in a fearful Premiership where teams take lumps out of each other for the right to lose to the Cheats in the final. This mentality has permeated into the National coaching set up and there is nowhere left to go. The RFU has willingly strangled the game because they are beholden to a couple of highly influential clubs and are actively shrinking its appeal to have a 10 team prem. It?s about as exciting as the Scottish Football Prem and the two horse race it?s been for years.

I caught up with some mates this evening who used to really enjoy the Six Nations, but this year confessed to half watching the game and probably not watching any more of the tournament now England are fighting for the wooden spoon. The destruction the RFU has wrought on the game of late is scandalous.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

I didn't think it was as bad as some make it and given the circumstances not too bad a result. I'm certainly more hopeful of seeing some decent England rugby that I was after the AIs.

I thought the Smith/Farrell partnership looked a bit better, but they're still hammering a square peg in to a round hole. On that subject Matt Dawson makes a good point on the BBC website that Borthwick has boxed himself in to a corner by making Farrell captain, he can hardly drop him now to make way for a different playing style.

If they are going to play two 10s and whoever is at 12 cant make big carries then they need to start getting round defences not trying to go through them. Farrell isn't a crashball 10 so they're not going to create holes that way.

One area that did concern me was the replacement props. Cole may be a good scrummager, and he did win a penalty, but he's 37. If the starting tight head gets injured in the first few minutes can he last 80? Vunipola doesn't look up to the job now either.

The commentators made a comment that Townsend had taken the radical step of picking in form players and playing them in their club positions and that maybe it might catch on. Lets hope so.

[Shugs]

Jones had lost the plot. Also, England lack international class players at 9, 12 and 15. Also Itoje seems to be an auto pick but has been anonymous for a good while. We have to have seen the last of Youngs and Farrell at 12. He?s probably our best option at 10 but is not the answer at 12.

[Wombles]

So much has to be done to undo the damage that Eddie Jones did to England post 2019. His overreliance on under performing Saracens players, his inability to keep a stable coaching team. His total loss of vision and constant "building to the World Cup" misfire. Words without action, paucity of effort without application. A narrowing of game play that frustrated and achieved little but derision. Authoritarianism over invention. Separating the fans from the team, and these are just a few ideas that I can think of as I write this prose.

Yesterday was a loss, the 4th time in 5 years that the Calcutta Cup -the first and one of the most important test matches- remains north of Hadrian's wall. As a proud Englishman this hurts! Yes we have other rivalries, but the six nations v the Scots in Rugby's greatest annual tournament is the first fixture I look for.

Yet sometimes a loss is better than a win

10 training sessions under Borthwicks new era was unlikely to defeat a Scottish team settled and more experienced. Yes familiar faces from the South Africa defeat were still present on the teamsheet, but the direction of travel and navigator had changed. As much as there was hope for a result, pragmatism and realism revealed a different picture. What did people think was going to happen? A resounding England win? A dead cat bounce? The first was unlikely as so much is there to do, the second offers no value in the long run.

Did Borthwicks England make some mistakes, yes. Tackle completion was shocking, the defence looked disconnected -especially the 12 channel where Farrell has to shoulder blame for 2 Scottish tries-, the forwards getting lost in the England backline to often. Borthwick selecting Farrell as Captain when Englands future looks much better with Smith in the 10 shirt. But there was more that flipped the assessment dial into the positive. Multi Phase rugby, playing with heads up. Players running hard and straight, offering options when line breaks happened.

Make no bones, we are so far behind the 8 ball with where Jones took us, that to think we could suddenly win the six nations is to discredit the way not only Scotland play (and they are more than a mid table team), but also Ignores what Ireland and France are achieving. Even Italy look like that they have finally come to the party after 20 years. We are not going to win this six nations, we will do well to get into the Quater finals of the world cup. But that is no bad thing, we need to play the long game, one where a change of culture, a link of the fans and team uniting, where wearing the red rose IS the ultimate. That means building on firm foundations. Yes new structures and style slipped, it was always going to be thus in the first test. But there was a palpable sea change, a different feel, something emotionally tactile. And the evidence was a team that kept going, kept trying, kept grafting, were hurting at full time. And even though they were not good enough on the day there is no doubt that the longer Borthwick and co and their values remain the better we will become.

Yesterday was the start of a journey and one that we all will be pleased to be on.

[Heathen]

Steve Borthwick: The England I inherited from Eddie Jones weren?t good at anything

Steve Borthwick said that the England team under Eddie Jones ?weren?t good at anything? as he plots a big rebuild after defeat in their opening Six Nations game.

The new England head coach lost his first Test in charge 29-23 to Scotland, who now hold the Calcutta Cup for the fifth time in six years.

Borthwick, who has had only 11 days of training with his players, saw signs of a revival despite the defeat, but said that he was alarmed at how poor England had become under Jones.

?I?ve been frank from day one in saying there?s a lot of work to do,? he said after the loss at Twickenham. ?When I looked at the team in the autumn, when I got all the data for the team, we weren?t good at anything.

?There?s multiple areas that we have tried to change. You saw some improvement in the scrum, which I was pleased about, because it has been ranked as the worst scrum in Tier One rugby [in 2022].
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?We saw some improvements in the attack and speed of ball, and we tried to improve the breakdown, where I think England were ranked the ninth-quickest, so one of the slowest in Tier One.

?There were bits there where I would expect in a few weeks? time ? well, next week [against Italy] is my aim ? those cracks [that] appeared and allowed them in won?t be there next week.

?When you are trying to develop and build a team, you?d like it to be nice, smooth sailing, but unfortunately it wasn?t. I feel disappointed with the result. I asked the players to do some things differently. I have asked the players to play a new way.

?One thing I have got to do is get the players to believe in themselves and bring their strengths to the pitch. Get them to play to the best of themselves, which I don?t think we have seen them do for a while. I think you saw an improvement in that regard.? Borthwick was heartened by England?s reaction to slipping 7-0 down inside 15 minutes, as they built a 20-12 lead in the second half, but was disappointed with the defence, and the way that they allowed Scotland back into the game.
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In the first half England missed five tackles on Duhan van der Merwe, as the Scotland wing scored from 55 metres out. Scotland then scored second-half tries through Ben White, the scrum half, and Van der Merwe, whose second try, with six minutes to play, proved decisive.

?I want to win,? Borthwick said. ?We all want the England team to win ? and three quarters of the way through that game today, I thought we were going to. You have got to be hard to score against. You have got to be hard to beat.

?I can say there are areas that we want to improve on, we want to win. I said on my first day in the job, I?ve got to make sure this team delivers. I am bitterly disappointed with the result. I?m also understanding it?s a first step for us as a new team. But there were some really strong performances and it gives you things to improve on and build on.

?We wanted the Calcutta Cup and we didn?t do it and we?ve got to make sure we win next week.?
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England will update their squad today. Courtney Lawes and Henry Slade should come back into contention, having had calf and hip issues, but Dan Kelly (thigh) looks to be struggling.

The hooker Jamie George said that the senior players needed to take more responsibility for these defeats. The Scotland loss was England?s seventh Six Nations defeat in their past 11 games.

?We?re all very ambitious people,? George said. ?We?re aware that it hasn?t been good enough and especially in the autumn, it wasn?t.

?Eddie took the brunt of it in terms of losing his job. But at the same time, we were the people on the field. So we have to take accountability for it too.?

[mike909]

I've seen this said by both the odd Jones fan player and many Jones fan fans. That the players had let Jones down by not being able to deliver.

What the fxxx.....I used to managed teams that were responsible for technical matters. We were part of a technical team. If my lot couldn't do what I was asking them to do, that was my problem. Not theirs's. As if fellow professionals whom I happened to be managing could not deliver what was asked, the first query was surely to ask myself if I was asking the impossible.

As a sports coach - you might have a fantastic plan (though if England did it was damn well hidden) but if it's not deliverable either "at all" or with the resources you have, then that's a coaching problem, surely?

[MarleyWasp]

The Telegraph posted a tweet asking if it's time to move on from Ben Youngs.

The time to move on from Ben Youngs was 3 years ago and that's being generous.

[Shugs]

I've seen this said by both the odd Jones fan player and many Jones fan fans. That the players had let Jones down by not being able to deliver.

What the fxxx.....I used to managed teams that were responsible for technical matters. We were part of a technical team. If my lot couldn't do what I was asking them to do, that was my problem. Not theirs's. As if fellow professionals whom I happened to be managing could not deliver what was asked, the first query was surely to ask myself if I was asking the impossible.

As a sports coach - you might have a fantastic plan (though if England did it was damn well hidden) but if it's not deliverable either "at all" or with the resources you have, then that's a coaching problem, surely?

Mike, I think we are in the perfect storm at the moment. Jones was shockingly bad. The players available to England are also sub-standard in too many positions. A good example is scrum half. Youngs has been persisted with for an infeasible amount of time. But who has been snapping at his heels? There is a clutch of players, the likes of Mitchell, Robson, Spencer. Are any materially better than Youngs? The other key position we have virtually no options at is 12. Borthwick must grasp the nettle and play EITHER Smith or Farrell at 10. But who at 12? We just don?t have a Moefana, Aki or even a Tompkins. Do we really not have enough wingers to avoid having to play Malins there (who should be absolutely nailed on at FB). Sinckler and Genge are OK but the rest of our front row on Saturday read Cole, Vunipola, George and Walker. That is miles away from what the French and Irish are selecting from. We?re suddenly lacking quality and depth at second row. We can still cobble a good back row together - although I?m absolutely astounded both Willis brothers are overlooked but Ben Curry can get a game. The reality is Jones has left us in a mess but we?re also really short of international quality in some really key areas. Results are telling us we just aren?t good enough.

[westwaleswasp]

https://mobile.twitter.com/andypowell8/status/1621940984232742915?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

What gets me is the fact that Geech, Gatland et al. keep talking about the test match animal. I never honestly did rate Geech as a head coach, Mr Lion though he is, but Gatland too bought into the Faz ideal . Although there was a big gap in Gat's record for Wales, namely his record vs the SH, you would think someone of his stature might have clocked that Farrell simply cannot play in a team that is looking to play. He is a brilliant ten in in a team looking to win with ten man rugby. Which works when 1 to 8 are better than everyone else's 1 to 8.

[Andywasp50]

One of the big problems with appointing Borthwick is that he has too much baggage with Tigers and the set up in general. A coach from outside the prem with a fresh set of ideas, eyes and no pre-existing loyalties is in a much better place to turn things around.

This is no better demonstrated than the fact both first and second choice Leicester 9's were picked which is ludicrous - especially as neither are the best we have. JVP is too slow in thought and getting to the breakdown and Ben Youngs, well it's all been said about the farcical situation of selecting him. Additionally Steward has gone downhill at a rate of knots, his ex-captain Genge just winds himself into a rage and charges at players rather than gaps or shoulders, and Borthwick is too close to the whole set up and is another one in Farrell's pocket. As for picking Dan Cole it beggared belief.

I'm not a Jones fan and was glad he went, but he at least came without baggage and took the shambles of the Lancaster reign on a world record equalling winning run from the start. The line out, restarts and defence were deplorable on Saturday, to a level that shouldn't be seen in a test match on a calm, dry day.

This is a deep hole of the RFU's own making.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

I don't know if anyone else watched him, but Vunipola very quickly slowed to turtle pace and seemed to move around relatively aimlessly when the ball was in open play. His tank never appeared more than half full, and then it emptied.

Did I read he has selected half the Tigers team for next week?

[mike909]

I've seen this said by both the odd Jones fan player and many Jones fan fans. That the players had let Jones down by not being able to deliver.

What the fxxx.....I used to managed teams that were responsible for technical matters. We were part of a technical team. If my lot couldn't do what I was asking them to do, that was my problem. Not theirs's. As if fellow professionals whom I happened to be managing could not deliver what was asked, the first query was surely to ask myself if I was asking the impossible.

As a sports coach - you might have a fantastic plan (though if England did it was damn well hidden) but if it's not deliverable either "at all" or with the resources you have, then that's a coaching problem, surely?

Mike, I think we are in the perfect storm at the moment. Jones was shockingly bad. The players available to England are also sub-standard in too many positions. A good example is scrum half. Youngs has been persisted with for an infeasible amount of time. But who has been snapping at his heels? There is a clutch of players, the likes of Mitchell, Robson, Spencer. Are any materially better than Youngs? The other key position we have virtually no options at is 12. Borthwick must grasp the nettle and play EITHER Smith or Farrell at 10. But who at 12? We just don?t have a Moefana, Aki or even a Tompkins. Do we really not have enough wingers to avoid having to play Malins there (who should be absolutely nailed on at FB). Sinckler and Genge are OK but the rest of our front row on Saturday read Cole, Vunipola, George and Walker. That is miles away from what the French and Irish are selecting from. We?re suddenly lacking quality and depth at second row. We can still cobble a good back row together - although I?m absolutely astounded both Willis brothers are overlooked but Ben Curry can get a game. The reality is Jones has left us in a mess but we?re also really short of international quality in some really key areas. Results are telling us we just aren?t good enough.

Shugs, I think jones did what he always seems to do which is get early results and then confuse and piss people off. We'd got max value by 2019. (He saved time at Queensland Reds...) Looking at the assistant coaching team, something like 11 of 18 assistants were post RWC. At 2019 we had a vg coaching team and were at a RWC and they virtually all left - Mitchell asked us for sanctuary....And after the RWC we played one decent season and then the coaching choices went bizarre. Picking out of form Championship players and kids with only a handful of Prem games.

Youngs and the backrow are good examples. Robson wasn't given a sniff. Yet week in week out he looked class. Backrow, wtf has a Willis got to do to get a go? We were playing SR's at 6 even though our best period was with a normal backrow. (Wilson at 6)

What was also striking was that last season, Wasps had a better pack than England recently put out. (no bias obvs) But West/Ohgre/Biyi/Stooke/Launch/2x Willis and one other (Brad etc) is a load better than what England put out last weekend and anything in the AI's.

But if the basics were that bad - Jones had really pissed on England's chips....

[Bloke in North Dorset]

I don't know if anyone else watched him, but Vunipola very quickly slowed to turtle pace and seemed to move around relatively aimlessly when the ball was in open play. His tank never appeared more than half full, and then it emptied.

Did I read he has selected half the Tigers team for next week?

He?s never been the most mobile prop but I thought the same. He?s had some good games but I?ve always felt he?s benefited from the halo affect of being in the EA?s winning side and wondered if he?d been such a regular had he played at, say, Newcastle.

[andermt]

Mike, I think we are in the perfect storm at the moment. Jones was shockingly bad. The players available to England are also sub-standard in too many positions. A good example is scrum half. Youngs has been persisted with for an infeasible amount of time. But who has been snapping at his heels? There is a clutch of players, the likes of Mitchell, Robson, Spencer. Are any materially better than Youngs? .........

To pick up on that specific point as everyone points to Youngs, I honestly thought Youngs would have gone when he hit 100 caps, but Jones kept bringing him back, and whether there was a viable alternative or not no-one ever got a chance, take Robson, who we all know, he was week in week out the best 9 in the Prem for a while, he got picked for England and never got a start, and more often than not got 10mins at the end, I remember him getting a decent amount of game time in one match, as a winger! Then as you get towards a World Cup Jones goes Jones random and picks Heinz, who has never been seen again!
When you slog your guts out week in week out and get no thanks from the national coach then I'm sure you get to a stage of thinking, what's the point!
I'd suggest the same thing has happened with Spenser, he was the other in form Prem 9.
This is the Legacy Jones has left for England, a group of out or form players who get picked time and again, and a strong base group who would, if put in an England 15 to play the main squad would win with ease, who never get a chance.

As a Scot I think that's great , but as a Wasps fan I hated the fact our great in form players got ignored time and again.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

A thought about Youngs. Has it reached the point where he's getting picked for his experience in the run up to the world cup? Its a bit of a catch 22, nobody else has the experience because he keeps getting picked and in the WC you need experience, esp for the knockout games.

If the WC is the object then its a tough one for the coaches.