England v Italy (spoiler)

[Bloke in North Dorset]

Jack gets the first try. Break off a maul.

[Neils]

Chicken Run is quite good.

[Rossm]

Late (ish) on Farrell and, surprise, surprise, the brat doesn't like it.

[mike909]

Watched it - I know you win by scoring more points - but that was a performance that reeked of lack of ambition and of using Lawrence like a Quins' 12 substitute which next time out is likely just to provide Wales/Fra/Ire with a premeditated target....

Whilst some of the defensive effort was ok - Italy managed to show all of the rugby played and that if pressed England were porous. The effort to maul over the line from a lineout is the least, very least you'd expect from an England coached by Borthwick. It doesn't provide confidence for playing teams who can defend a lineout and maul. Scrum was ok - ref generous and after the subs, not good enough. Mako looked puffed.

Little coherence beyond that. Terrible commentary from people who think Lawrence is a regular 12....

[westwaleswasp]

Was surprised at the commentary, a lot more positive than the game I saw that showed little in the way of imagination from the men in white. I mean it was more coherent than England have been in the last year of Jones, but the inevitable tries came exactly as expected.

[Shugs]

I felt sorry for Lawrence. He?s a gifted player but was asked to just batter forwards. England simply don?t have a 12. Willis?s whole energy was just something else. I think we?d look far more dangerous with Malins at full back and a complete flier on the wing. I do wonder how long Itoje is an auto pick.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

What a dull game. After the France game I suppose my expectations were a bit high but they just didn?t turn up. That said, I think the only time I got excited was when Italy looked like breaking out from the back.

England were as predictable as even, French and Irish coaches will be licking their lips.

We learned that Lawrence is a better 12 than OF, but I think even the latest fans of the game would have known that.

On the subject and of OF, it was said that his big strength as his place kicking and that he was worth his place on that skill alone. Whether that was true or not, I?m starting to wonder  if that?s still the case, it?s only a gut feel but his kicking starts seem to be dropping off. Anyone got any recent stats on his kicking success?

[Heathen]

Jack was top drawer today. He did more in the 50 odd minutes to have warranted Player of the Match.

How many points did England score when battering 14 men?

Ireland and France will batter us on this evidence.

[Andywasp50]

I don?t have stats on Farrell?s kicking but it?s very poor these days - I would hedge a guess and say about 60% success. I was surprised at the commentary too and thought Farrell was abysmal because he kept trying grubber kicks when we were in their 22 - he just has no idea how to create space and pop a pass so his brain overloads and he reverts to kicking possession away. Mitchell showed him how do do it for Arundel?s try. Like Ross mentioned, OF throwing a tantrum when he got a taste of his own medicine was amusing.

Lawrence is a better 12 than OF, and Smith is a better 10, so why make him captain? Mitchell is a better 9 than JVP too and would link up well with Smith. Borthwick has brought too much baggage from his EAs and Tigers stints and English rugby will continue to suffer for it, eg bringing on Cole and Vunipola is plain embarrassing as they lumber around knackered before they?ve even started.

I was chuffed to see Jack play so well - I thought he was outstanding. Not sure if Borthwick was impressed though. Being interviewed by Bayfield afterwards he wouldn?t acknowledge him singing Willis?s praises and just said he wanted better ruck speed. I think all we?ve got is an Eddie Jones ?mini me? and are there for the taking in the next three games.

Also, I was staggered at the end when ITV cut mid interview with Borthwick to ?get the thoughts of? the female rugby commentator/ex player, which it deemed more important that the actual head coach. Crazy.

[mike909]

I guess the key is that elsewhere, people are posting how pleased they are that England managed a win....That England at home ought to be grateful for a win, vs Italy (no offense - but it's an excepted win, esp at home) and that to do so, England had to play 40 mins of dull kick to the corner and maul, seems a very limited upside...

I kind of expect England to have a decent if not sophisticated pack that can compete. They surely didn't need to demonstrate  that...and then, looking back at the AI's, the last two 6N's, perhaps I was being too optimistic that the change from Jones would allow that.

And I ought to have realised that if SA playing at 80% could trash the side and we could managed to lose to Argentina playing without intent......

So - what to think? We were lucky in the fixture listing? Playing Ireland first up would have been awkward....

[InBetweenWasp]

With the demise of Wasps it feels like this board has become very negative on rugby in general, not just club rugby.

Thought that the first 40 was just what England needed.  I think we were all a bit twitchy after the Scotland game and having seen Italy push France hard last week.  Defence held-up, ruck speed had improved, collisions won.  I can cope with building a 19-point lead by kicking to the corner.  I also didn't mind us seeing kick the ball away when nothing was on and keep Italy turning/guessing - The Malin's break for the non-try just showed the indeicision that mixing it up a bit can create.

However, the second half was the opposite - scrappy and disjointed.  Farrell copping a lot of criticism - I'd prefer Smith over Farrell in terms of the style of play i'd like to see us develop as I think Smith has the ability to deliver what I personally want to see but totally happy to see Farrell get a start at 10 and not 12, especially with his form for Saracens this year where his passing has been a little more fluid.

Thought Farrell had virtually no opportunity to showcase how he's been playing for Saracens.  We played off of JvP more than Farrell and if that's the pattern the Coaching Team are looking at, I don't think Farrell or Smith make a blind bit of difference.

Would quite like to see a bench-partnership of Dombrandt, Mitchell Smith coming on at the same time and also Arundell for either Steward/Malins to give him and OHC some gametime where they can feed off of each other like they do at Irish.

Think we might need to find a better back-up to Genge than Mako as well.

[baldpaul101]

With the demise of Wasps it feels like this board has become very negative on rugby in general, not just club rugby.

Personally I am a Rugby fan first, a Wasps fan second. So I have not gone the way of many on here who seem to hate the game.
Yes I know all the reasons that people have for that & they are perfectly entitled to hold those views, but not everybody thinks that way.

[Nigel Med]

Clearly England needed to change from the stagnant dross and endless media-baiting nonsense that Jones served up. I wasn't sure that Borthwick was the answer but given how impressively he turned Tigers fortunes around I was prepared to give him a chance. I can't say he endeared himself when one of the first things he did was retain OF at skipper meaning he is nailed on as a starter. He is not the best English fly half by some measure and as many have mentioned his kicking stats are slipping.

Whilst there was noticeable improvement yesterday, particularly defensively and at set piece, there were still tactical and selection issues that I just don't understand. It was clearly a pre-meditated tactic to kick behind at every opportunity. it yielded precisely sod-all, a decent skipper would have realised that there was a better chance of scoring by holding on to the bloody ball rather than kicking it straight back to the opposition back 3, particularly when one of them is Capuozzo, just ask Welsh fans how wise that is.

Please tell me what Borthwick sees in Dombrandt, if you want to talk about test match animals, he isn't one. Another who is outstanding for his club but just isn't up to the standard for International rugby. He was marginally better yesterday but having given Jack Willis a start and been rewarded with an outstanding performance- I thought he was unlucky not to get Man of the Match- why not give his brother Tom a try?

The most embarrassing selection is undoubtedly Cole and Vunipola on the bench. They are simply far too slow, end of. It was pitiful how laboured they were defensively when Italy started throwing the ball around. If it's pouring with rain and a mud bath they might warrant a place but in half decent conditions England's intensity drops off the chart when they come on, the total opposite of what your replacements should bring to the game.

France and Ireland will murder us on the evidence so far, particularly in the final quarter.

[westwaleswasp]

I think part of the issue is we see the wonderful French team with ambition and superb broken field running from Italy over these past few months, and then look at our exciting backline on paper and say "we could match that". Then we see Farrell at 10- and I am with Andy Powell on this - we will go nowhere with him at 12, or 10, unless we get a pack that can win matches with 10 man rugby.

We won pragmatically- fair enough-no issues at all if that is how they want to play,  but the ITV commentary seemed to think England were inventive- a problem when we constantly get guys like Flats and Ben Kay in the commentary box/studio all season, Johnson too on the beeb-  good technical commentators, and funny too in all cases, but not exactly able to comment with authority on inventive back play. I know he gets people's backs up, but Austin Healy is often the first to criticise slow and uninventive back play, and I suspect he would not have been very happy with Sunday.

[jamestaylor002]

With the demise of Wasps it feels like this board has become very negative on rugby in general, not just club rugby.

Appreciate I'm taking a snippet of your quote.

I feel a fall into this bracket for sure. When Wasps were still around, it was much easier for me to let the issues I have with rugby go by as I had my team to follow. With no Wasps, I'm not as compelled to go along with it. I could give you an essay as to why this is the case but I won't bore you with it  .

To try and keep on topic, the way that England play doesn't excite me. I can accept England losing but only if they are willing to go out there and play rugby rather than the dross that's being played right now. From the game I watched yesterday and from what I heard about the Scotland game, it appears that only little has changed. There needs to be an upheaval in how the England set up is run. Decide on what playing philosophy you want to adopt and select the players who are in form (regardless of the club the play for) in their correct positions who will best deliver that philosophy. This might not deliver instant results (which the RFU will want) but it could work in the long term. If you want to play 10 man rugby, Farrell can stay at 10, but you need to pick the best pack. If you want to play expansive rugby, you want someone like Smith and no Farrell at all. If fans see a process, they will buy into that and keep coming back even if the results don't show immediately.