Always a Wasp

Author Topic: England today  (Read 12616 times)

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: England today
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2023, 06:39:29 PM »
Manu is certainly not the answer. In terms of Ire they had a flanker on line out duty and a prop hooking yesterday and got it done cosily in the end. Their injuries would need to be fourfold what they have for us to avoid a spanking.
And Cotter couldn't get his around the idea that just because someone other than the hooker is throwing in it doesn't make them a hooker. It was amusing at first then quite irritating.

InBetweenWasp

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Re: England today
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2023, 09:17:02 AM »
France were unplayable on Saturday.  Their physicality was off the scale; when else have you seen the likes of Jack, Genge, Ludlam man-handled so easily... It also felt like a 'one-off' performance for France.  A bit like us in the 2019 Semi-Final against New Zealand.  France had been building themselves up for this game in particular even if the real big one for them was Ireland.

I'm not really sure where the fix is to have made that game winnable for us.  Perhaps taking the points earlier on with hindsight, rather than kicking to the corner (even though i'd happily of advocated the first couple of kicks to the corner at the time) would have helped provide some scoreboard pressure and keep us in the game.

Most people I know and pretty much all the pundits as well were happy with the selection and felt it was right based on form (i.e. Smith for Farrell). 

Struggle to see where changes can or could have been made.  Perhaps Tom Curry in but he was injured rather than excluded, Ben seemed to compete well when he came on, perhaps it best cameo for England so far. 

People calling for the likes of Mercer or T.Willis would have likely seem them outmuscled as well.  Billy is the only option that I think could have physically competed on Saturday.  Lawes perhaps instead of Chessum if Lawes was still fit. 

The irony is, when Eddie picked a team based on size to compete with France he was probably right to do so.

westwaleswasp

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Re: England today
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2023, 10:19:49 AM »
I would argue if Eddie had picked a team not on size for France and other similar ideas, we would not have been lamenting the paucity of caps amongst players like Smith et al. You don't out muscle France or SA with size. You beat them by developing a team with a coherent all court game.


Nigel Med

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Re: England today
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2023, 10:54:21 AM »
I was trying to work out if it was France being outstanding or England being dreadful or a combination of the two. It was men against boys, reminded me of the first few years of the Six Nations when Italy were the whipping boys and everyone playing them could try anything and score.

You can't ignore the gulf in quality, this wasn't the "Tour of Hell" with a second choice squad halfway round the world, this was arguably our strongest team at home and we lost to a record score. What's the issue? Is it going to take Borthwick time to try and undo the damage that Jones did sticking with the same selections regardless of form and ignoring young talent? Is Borthwick's lack of International coaching experience being exposed? Is this the RFU's mismanagement of the English game? Is it a result of the 8 man rugby perpetrated by the EAs and Chiefs that is dominating the Premiership meaning we can't compete at International level if we can't dominate up front?

I'm hoping that it was "one of those days" when France were just outstanding and they would have wiped the floor with whoever was in front of them, including Ireland. If they can maintain that standard at their home World Cup they'll be very hard to beat.

The only plus point for me was how gratifying it was to see how good Theo was and it was mentioned a couple of times that it was Wasps who gave him his first shot at professional rugby.


westwaleswasp

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Re: England today
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2023, 05:03:01 PM »
Is it a result of the 8 man rugby perpetrated by the EAs and Chiefs that is dominating the Premiership meaning we can't compete at International level if we can't dominate up front?

Yep.

Shugs

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Re: England today
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2023, 06:25:44 PM »
For me it wasn?t a one off. This will be the second 6N where we?ve won 2 from 5. The point has been made that selection was there or thereabouts what most would have done. Conclusion: we are not very good and haven?t been for a while - we don?t have the players.

Andywasp50

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Re: England today
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2023, 11:13:10 PM »
Is it a result of the 8 man rugby perpetrated by the EAs and Chiefs that is dominating the Premiership meaning we can't compete at International level if we can't dominate up front?

Yep.

Agree too.

The EA's influence in particular is now so deeply embedded within the Prem and RFU, to the extent that I think English rugby is facing a long time in the wilderness. The forwards based kick, chase and smash strangulation tactics work when you've cheated the salary cap to assemble a star studded super squad to give you a massive advantage, but you can't do that at International level.

Jones and Borthwick have both come through the EAs set-up, as have Sanderson at Sale and Wigglesworth at Tigers - they're now the top three in the Prem. The rise of the EAs blueprint in the GP has coincided with the last two fifth place finishes in the Six Nations. Exeter have functioned off well executed eight man rugby but it looks like the pre-latching rule has put a spoke in their game.

The RFU has signed up to the EAs blueprint now too so I can see Sanderson being lined up as next cab off the rank if it doesn't work out with Borthwick, or maybe Wigglesworth stepping up.

Whoever is coach though, it doesn't explain the lack of test match intensity on Saturday. That's a fundamental requirement but England just didn't have it, mentally or physically.

WonkyWasp

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Re: England today
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2023, 06:59:32 AM »
Neatly put.

backdoc

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Re: England today
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2023, 09:22:51 AM »
Is it a result of the 8 man rugby perpetrated by the EAs and Chiefs that is dominating the Premiership meaning we can't compete at International level if we can't dominate up front?

Yep.

Agree too.

The EA's influence in particular is now so deeply embedded within the Prem and RFU, to the extent that I think English rugby is facing a long time in the wilderness. The forwards based kick, chase and smash strangulation tactics work when you've cheated the salary cap to assemble a star studded super squad to give you a massive advantage, but you can't do that at International level.

Jones and Borthwick have both come through the EAs set-up, as have Sanderson at Sale and Wigglesworth at Tigers - they're now the top three in the Prem. The rise of the EAs blueprint in the GP has coincided with the last two fifth place finishes in the Six Nations. Exeter have functioned off well executed eight man rugby but it looks like the pre-latching rule has put a spoke in their game.

The RFU has signed up to the EAs blueprint now too so I can see Sanderson being lined up as next cab off the rank if it doesn't work out with Borthwick, or maybe Wigglesworth stepping up.

Whoever is coach though, it doesn't explain the lack of test match intensity on Saturday. That's a fundamental requirement but England just didn't have it, mentally or physically.

It is worse than that.

Borthwick has doubled down and is bringing the EA scrum coach Ian Peel into the England Coaching squad.

mike909

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Re: England today
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2023, 11:36:52 AM »
Jones took advantage of having half plus of one clubs pack selected - that was especially useful when it included an on form BV and Maro and Kruis. Took a lot of requirements for coordination out of the way, increased with the hooker too.

Trouble was - when your plan is "EA's plus" and they go off form....

I hadn't actually noticed before - but the last 6Ns that England were doing ok was 2020. The last season that Kruis was available. And the last that a pack was able to deliver to a "RWC Final - a - like" backline.

What was stunning was the drop off in form and results immediately after. It really suggests that without most of an inform EA's pack to select, England were not at the races - prob caused by their relegation and lack of hard game time.

You can see it in the 2021 6Ns game vs Scotland - off the pace and not in a game they only lost 12-6. Got out thought in Cardiff and dismantled in Dublin. Oddly winning vs a France team that ought to have won.

So - England's successes seemed indeed based upon the EA's being like a "mini England" training team avoiding the need to change too much, and the 10/12 of the U-20's team. 

Makes Borthwick's task all the harder. As there isn't really that backbone of England qual EA's.....in form and able to support the England team.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 11:51:24 AM by mike909 »

mike909

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Re: England today
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2023, 11:42:47 AM »
England today - again...A back to the future selection. Whilst great to see Arundel on the wing - Farrell, Manu and Slade fail my "dynamism test" and with the slow SH too.

Ireland won't likely be surprised what a Farrell/Manu 10/12 are likely to do....And whilst this midfield did play together before....it was 2019 6Ns and RWC QF. But the team was moving forwards and Manu was in good fitness and form.

Seems more of a "not lose by too many" selection rather than anything else.

wycombewasp

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Re: England today
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2023, 11:51:28 AM »
Must do Smiths confidence the world of good, great man management,reminds me of someone else, lets hope Saint F gets on the wrong side of the reff.

Shugs

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Re: England today
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2023, 12:16:18 PM »
England today - again...A back to the future selection. Whilst great to see Arundel on the wing - Farrell, Manu and Slade fail my "dynamism
 test" and with the slow SH too.

Ireland won't likely be surprised what a Farrell/Manu 10/12 are likely to do....And whilst this midfield did play together before....it was 2019 6Ns and RWC QF. But the team was moving forwards and Manu was in good fitness and form.

Seems more of a "not lose by too many" selection rather than anything else.
We?ve got ourselves into a funny position with Tuilagi. We?re only concerned with if he?s fit or not. The wider point is that for me even when he is fit I?ve not seen him play particularly well for 2-3 years. He doesn?t actually warrant a place fit or not. As you say it will be slow ball to Farrell - kick. Or slow ball to Farrell, on to Tuilagi crash it up. Ireland will gobble that up all day. And that?s if we get any ball.

mike909

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Re: England today
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2023, 12:52:13 PM »
He's not looked like having any form for ages. I wonder if he's lost condition/pace such that he falls between two stools. He was supposed to be trying to lose weight to help his joints etc - but seemed to have lost that power which made him dangerous in the 13 channel.

Was still going well enough in 2020 6Ns especially vs Wales R4 and Ireland R3 until getting a red vs Wales. Subbed alter 16m vs France in R1 and missed R2

Not played 6Ns since.

Heathen

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Re: England today
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2023, 07:29:04 PM »
Big improvement from previous weeks. Cards killed us in the end. Fancy Irelend would still have got there but our lads can take a lot of credit from today.