England today

[backdoc]

Isn't Shaun contracted until the next world cup? He will be into his 60's then.

[Andywasp50]

If I was Shaun Id stay well away from the rapidly sinking ship that is English rugby. Sweeney is still asleep at the wheel and should be long gone as per the advice of the DSMC. Hes thrown the English game under the bus to appease the EAs and now their players find the Prem such a walk in the park they are perpetually undercooked.

Borthwick had the guts to drop Farrell but sticking with Jack van Plodfoot really shows he is out of his depth - I dont think Ive ever seen such an obviously substandard number 9 in an England shirt. Im not sure hes even as good as an aged Youngs and hes not even good enough to be a Prem starter. Atrocious in all aspects of the game, he is particularly slow of thought and his useless boxkick set up Frances first try. Mitchell was on a different planet when he came on. Slade was awful and hid as much as he could, as was Dombrandt, and I really dont know why Watson was in the side.

Its inexplicable that we have France out there playing rugby with class, physicality and verve at test match intensity, and another plodding along like it was a mid table Premiership match on a pudding of a pitch. Englands skills were thoroughly second rate throughout.

The irony is that the greatest English coach in the professional era was with the visiting team and victors yet again because hes not good enough for the RFU, whilst the overhyped Seinfeld and the drowning Borthwick cobble together a stinker of a performance and sit together looking confused and lost. I hope Edwards enjoyed that because theres no one more deserving of handing the RFU their arses on a plate.

[Neils]

Isn't Shaun contracted until the next world cup? He will be into his 60's then.

Yes. Signed a new contract recently after nobody at RFU Central coming back to him.

[WonkyWasp]

The RFU have had at least 2 chances of signing Shaun, haven't they?  How incompetent can you get.  And how stupid.

[Wombles]

France were Magnifique yesterday. From a purely rugby perspective it was a joy to watch! Power, precision, application, unity in understanding and performance? Eclatant!!!

England were disjointed in defence, and our forwards were overpowered far too often, they repeatedly failed to resource the breakdown and were turned over as a result. Smith is the future at 10, but there was little his undoubted talents can do when you have no platform to work from.

Going into this game -and next week against Ireland- I had no thoughts of victory, sport is gloriously unpredictable, but when you look at France and Ireland they are streets ahead of us in every possible measure. It is hard to underestimate the damage Eddie Jones caused post 2019, however yesterday was an example. Borthwick has yet to have his fully selected coaching team, and they are going to need time, because they have been parachuted into a pickle that the RFU and Jones created.

Next week will be a loss, Ireland are, in my honest opinion, better than France. We have to forget about the result and focus on the future?..and this also goes for the World Cup. Give it our best by all means, but also recognise that currently our best is no where good enough. It is time to rebuild and although that journey has already started, our aims to become a top team once more need to start to become very serious on round 1 of the six nations next year. Which players will be present for that journey will remain to be seen, and there will be many many discussions about that going forward. However I would be very surprised if Farrell is present, he may be an ultimate professional, but he is not a player that can inspire or lead us to success at the highest level.

[Shugs]

AndyWasp the backs you mention were unbelievably poor but you have to cut them some slack as it?s difficult to shine without the ball and we had no ball because our forwards were obliterated.
Genge & Sinckler - too busy posturing, looking mean etc etc. They might win one scrum a game but give endless pens away.
George - waddles around like a useless water carrier. Remember the line breaks and supporting runs - they were all 6/7 years ago.
Itoje - Hasn?t looked remotely interested for two years or more.
Chessum - Slightly better than average Prem lock.
Willis - Tried hard as always but was just physically brushed aside at the breakdown.
Ludlam - We are now accepting of a flanker who gives their all but doesn?t have the extras needed above sheer work rate that international players need.
Dombrandt - Not sure he wanted to be on the pitch. Had all the zip, power and desire of a blancmange.
Cole/Vunipola/Curry/Ribbans. Less than zero impact.
That?s the problem. And Englands problem is outside of probably Tom Willis and possibly George McGuigan I can?t think of anyone better waiting to be put in.

[Shugs]

Good post Wombles. But linking to mine who are you rebuilding with? Backs wise you?d pick out Smith/Ford and Steward. When you watch the prem there are no 12?s. All of the SH?s are similar in their averageness. We have more options at 13 and maybe a slight increase in quality but still I?d probably class as ?workaday?. On the wings? Arundell has promise. You are then into the likes of Watson, May, Nowell, Cockanasiga, Malins. All of whom range from average to adequate. Forwards wise it?s even worse but don?t want to repeat my earlier rant! English rugby is in a dire place and to rebuild you need appropriate materials.

[petros]

What staggers me is how Slade has picked up 50+ caps while rarely putting in good performances at test level

[Neils]

No let's not use French to describe them - the French Team were Magnificent!! Lifetimes ahead of Farrells failures.

[WonkyWasp]

Shame that the English supporters all got mobile calls about fires in their houses, and had  to rush home to inspect the damage. They missed a great display of how rugby should be played.

[mike909]

Good post Wombles. But linking to mine who are you rebuilding with? Backs wise you?d pick out Smith/Ford and Steward. When you watch the prem there are no 12?s. All of the SH?s are similar in their averageness. We have more options at 13 and maybe a slight increase in quality but still I?d probably class as ?workaday?. On the wings? Arundell has promise. You are then into the likes of Watson, May, Nowell, Cockanasiga, Malins. All of whom range from average to adequate. Forwards wise it?s even worse but don?t want to repeat my earlier rant! English rugby is in a dire place and to rebuild you need appropriate materials.

It's a hard one Shugs - it's too late for the RWC, surely - but looking towards a team that could do the business in the 6N's and win more than 2 of 5 perhaps a bit of clear out might be best, enabling a line to drawn, post Jones.

Scrumwise, at LH, Genge has promise but needs to knuckle down - time for a break? West is playing for Tigers today and VRR looks good too and Rodd. Frankly, hooker needs a clear out. No George or LCD again and look towards Walker. TH Heyes plus....   SR Chessum and Martin are both good enough, though prob not together....Ditto Nick I. Backrow, Wills x 2 and Earl for starters. Curry looks lost, Ludlam not good enough and Ludlow might be worth a punt.

Backline is more awkward. Mitchell and Quirke @ 9, Smith and Grayson? 12.....Kelly at Tigers is well regarded, and Lawrence at 13 with ball is excellent even in a poor Bath side. Worth the time. Back three, Steward is ok. FH is potentially a problem if want more than a younger Brown...Wings - Arundell, OHC, Radwan and the rest.

But - it needs a clear our of pretty much everyone who was a Jones' preference......And then be patient.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

When my wife is around and reading I usually wear headphones because she doesn't like rugby and I understand in that situation how much of a distraction the commentary can be, however I wasn't them yesterday and when she asked towards the end why I was still watching my answer was that I was enjoying watching the French. I was looking forward to watching then in this 6N but they've been a bit disappointing up to yesterday, but what we saw was what I many others were expecting.

I've mentioned before that I have good friends who are Honorary Stewards at Twickenham and when they stayed with us a couple of weeks ago we got on to why I won't go to Twickenham again (we've also discussed this before on here): because those attending predominantly aren't rugby fans and most are drunken louts (apparently its got worse in the past few years), so it didn't surprise me when all the "fans" started flooding out well before the end.

Whilst I agree Shaun has had a big impact on the French I think its a bit unfair on the rest of the coaching staff and and even the French RU to overdo it it. He's added mental steel and defensive organisation, but the whole structure is geared around producing good rugby and good French players and they've shown you don't need to contract to 8 teams to make it work.

Sadly Shaun will never get in to the England set up, even if the manager wants him, the RFU will never accept a blunt speaking northerner in their midst.

What was really sad yesterday was that England didn't even make France work for the right to play their brand of attacking rugby. France can be quite conservative to start with, kicking penalties and giving themselves a platform but they were never threatened and just slid in to full game mode.

Its going to be a long afternoon next week. I can see Ireland wanting to throw down a marker for France by aiming to beat their score and margin, especially as they are at home and it will probably be for the GS. Ireland also like to build a platform and they've got some of their stars back and with England's mental fragility after that loss the officials are going to need a cricket score book to keep up in the second half.

[Heathen]

If you think that yesterday was bad at HQ, it could be Armageddon for England in Dublin next week.

[Shugs]

Good post Wombles. But linking to mine who are you rebuilding with? Backs wise you?d pick out Smith/Ford and Steward. When you watch the prem there are no 12?s. All of the SH?s are similar in their averageness. We have more options at 13 and maybe a slight increase in quality but still I?d probably class as ?workaday?. On the wings? Arundell has promise. You are then into the likes of Watson, May, Nowell, Cockanasiga, Malins. All of whom range from average to adequate. Forwards wise it?s even worse but don?t want to repeat my earlier rant! English rugby is in a dire place and to rebuild you need appropriate materials.

It's a hard one Shugs - it's too late for the RWC, surely - but looking towards a team that could do the business in the 6N's and win more than 2 of 5 perhaps a bit of clear out might be best, enabling a line to drawn, post Jones.

Scrumwise, at LH, Genge has promise but needs to knuckle down - time for a break? West is playing for Tigers today and VRR looks good too and Rodd. Frankly, hooker needs a clear out. No George or LCD again and look towards Walker. TH Heyes plus....   SR Chessum and Martin are both good enough, though prob not together....Ditto Nick I. Backrow, Wills x 2 and Earl for starters. Curry looks lost, Ludlam not good enough and Ludlow might be worth a punt.

Backline is more awkward. Mitchell and Quirke @ 9, Smith and Grayson? 12.....Kelly at Tigers is well regarded, and Lawrence at 13 with ball is excellent even in a poor Bath side. Worth the time. Back three, Steward is ok. FH is potentially a problem if want more than a younger Brown...Wings - Arundell, OHC, Radwan and the rest.

But - it needs a clear our of pretty much everyone who was a Jones' preference......And then be patient.

Mike - completely agree with the names you?ve quoted - they are spot on. But I don?t see equivalents for say a DuPont, Penaud, Marchand, Van der Flier, Byrne, Doris, Fickou, Dante, Russell, Ritchie, Keenan, Ringrose, Flament, Willemse, Alldrit in there. These things are cyclical. I think we?ve just go to take our medicine and wait for the wheel to turn.

[mike909]

100% Shugs - but those who could be those in a changed group can grow into those players. Jonny W was only potential even in 99. But we do need patience and the guts to go with younger players.

But whilst these things are cyclical - somehow, Jones managed to take a better than average team from the RWC, maintain their form into 2020 and then allow terrible form/play/performances to kick in with no response. There needs to be some questions asked.

The 2021 6Ns was the most disappointing. Taken apart by Scotland, out thought by Wales and rolled over by Ireland. Vs Wales was a near RWC Final team....Jones has a reputation for losing the changing room and the stories of sausages, his time with both Japan and Oz and things like his cast off of Yarde ("how are you doing?" "Long weekend, quite tired" "No room for you here then..") or v similar. The casting off of Malins etc etc And that sort of "management" of people rarely ends well. And here we are.....