Dobby

[wycombewasp]

Watched Pau yesterday Robson on after 47min. still looks the best English  No9 not playing for England.

[Rossm]

When Pau visited Rodney Parade, a Welsh friend of mine said much the same thing at the time.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

I was pondering why Dobby didn't break in to the England camp recently and I think its a bit of "nobody go sacked for buying IBM" thinking from the coaches.

He's very much in the Danny Care mould rather than Youngs (obviously) as a player but Danny got the England shirt first (he's 5 years older than Dobby). This meant that when they wanted someone different to Youngs for any reason they turned to Care first. When Dobby came on the scene and playing his best he did get called up, but in the end the coaches fell back on what they knew.

Anyway, I wish him and his family well and hope continues to enjoy himself, sometimes we have to look at the silver lining and not the cloud.

[Shugs]

He didn?t get selected for England because he played for Wasps.

[WonkyWasp]

Too right Shugs.  That applies to several other players  -  some (like Dobby) the best in the Prem.

[westwaleswasp]

He didn?t get selected for England because he played for Wasps.

It wasn't the club, it was the style. Eddie wanted low risk Ben Youngs rugby, and short term it worked. At the point where it didn't Eddie was stubbornly sticking to it hoping that adding the odd shiny wheel flair player to the broken chariot was going to fix it. He also had a habit of judging people on their demeanour, as with Malins.

Eddie is simply a poor coach for any long term project. He didn't dislike Wasps, he just wanted us to play like the then Sarries, missing as so many do that the 'success' they had was because they were cheating in a way England could not. Strip that club down to a fair squad and they weren't as efficient as Chiefs or as incisive as Wasps, and their players were over represented. 

[wycombewasp]

It wasn't only EJ though, SL before him wouldn't touch Cipps or Wade with barge poll and B Ashton wasn't much better, this problem with dull, safety first rugby go's back a long long time.

[Rossm]

Fiver nails it in his book.

Cipriani lifts lid on English rugby?s great flaw: a mistrust of mavericks

Robert Kitson in The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/sep/05/cipriani-england-rugby-union-great-flaw-mistrust-of-mavericks-breakdown

[baldpaul101]

SL before him wouldn't touch Cipps or Wade with barge poll and B Ashton wasn't much better

Cips went to Australia for some of Lancaster?s time in charge & then was only playing OK at Sale, not setting the world alight.
He did actually pick Wade in 2013 (I think) but he was injured & someone else took his place.
Brian Ashton was probably the only England coach to have intelligent thoughts about attack, rather than focussing on set piece & defence. It didn?t always work, external pressure made his time in charge difficult, but Cips (IIRC) was close to Ashton & rated him as a coach.

As for not trusting Mavericks. With the exception of France & Scotland currently, which international team embrace mavericks? Ireland, NZ, Aus, SA, Wales as well as England don?t.
If Scotland or France do well at the upcoming RWC, maybe we?ll see a shift from defence to attack being the focus? We can hope!!

[Bloke in North Dorset]

in summary: England are carp because desire not to lose >> desire to win and has led to paralysis.

[baldpaul101]

England are carp because desire not to lose >> desire to win and has led to paralysis.

Reasonable summary yes.
England cricket are a great example of a side that was terrified of losing, worried about being dropped & were scared to play to their strengths.
Change of coach brought in a positive & relaxed atmosphere where players were freed up to play cricket that they wanted to play, with a positive mindset without the threat of being axed if they failed. Even during the summers ashes, which was the most exciting series I can remember watching, they copped some stick for not changing their approach when they lost a couple of games. Was nice to see they stuck to their guns, but it does show that everyone is under huge media & fans pressure to win & it can be difficult to stick to your plan when it doesn't go well
Quinn's managed this when Gustard went. A clearly unhappy squad, playing rugby they didn't like became an exciting, attacking champion side. It can be done

[Rifleman Harris]

England are carp because desire not to lose >> desire to win and has led to paralysis.

Reasonable summary yes.
England cricket are a great example of a side that was terrified of losing, worried about being dropped & were scared to play to their strengths.
Change of coach brought in a positive & relaxed atmosphere where players were freed up to play cricket that they wanted to play, with a positive mindset without the threat of being axed if they failed. Even during the summers ashes, which was the most exciting series I can remember watching, they copped some stick for not changing their approach when they lost a couple of games. Was nice to see they stuck to their guns, but it does show that everyone is under huge media & fans pressure to win & it can be difficult to stick to your plan when it doesn't go well
Quinn's managed this when Gustard went. A clearly unhappy squad, playing rugby they didn't like became an exciting, attacking champion side. It can be done

They did modify their plan though, they were more circumspect when they needed to be and didn't flash at everything with abandon (apart from Duckett).  They saw how to modify their overall plan, and implemented it well, whilst staying true to their ethos.  I don't think Borthwick (or the RFU generally) has the leadership skills to empower the players and to identify what needs changing and change it. Hence we stick to plan A even when it is clearly not working.

[Rifleman Harris]

England are carp because desire not to lose >> desire to win and has led to paralysis.

Reasonable summary yes.
England cricket are a great example of a side that was terrified of losing, worried about being dropped & were scared to play to their strengths.
Change of coach brought in a positive & relaxed atmosphere where players were freed up to play cricket that they wanted to play, with a positive mindset without the threat of being axed if they failed. Even during the summers ashes, which was the most exciting series I can remember watching, they copped some stick for not changing their approach when they lost a couple of games. Was nice to see they stuck to their guns, but it does show that everyone is under huge media & fans pressure to win & it can be difficult to stick to your plan when it doesn't go well
Quinn's managed this when Gustard went. A clearly unhappy squad, playing rugby they didn't like became an exciting, attacking champion side. It can be done

They did modify their plan though, they were more circumspect when they needed to be and didn't flash at everything with abandon (apart from Duckett).  They saw how to modify their overall plan, and implemented it well, whilst staying true to their ethos.  I don't think Borthwick (or the RFU generally) has the leadership skills to empower the players and to identify what needs changing and change it. Hence we stick to plan A even when it is clearly not working.

[Shugs]

One of the main differences between the cricket and rugby teams is the cricket team can reasonably call Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Anderson and Broad world class performers. Just under half the team. Borthwick is out of his depth but he?s plunged further into the mire as he can probably only call on Ford who maybe able to make a similar claim.

[westwaleswasp]

But that is because highly talented potential world beaters like fiver et al have been ignored in favour of time serving non entities. The latest of these potential world beaters is Smith, who has to fight to secure his place over a mouthy ten who upsets refs and who stands up in the tackle with the use of his arms being an optional extra. With a ropey boot for the last 18 months too.
If we don't pick hugely talented guys who tear up the prem, we cannot complain that those more prosaic players who do get in to play snooze ball are not world class.
Which brings us to Fiver's point.