England

[wycombewasp]

Billy V states in the papers this morning that England are the bad guys of the world cup but " WE DON'T CARE", what absolute arrogance, he should ask himself why, is it because they are a second rate team led by an over ratted captain and coached by a sub standard coaching team who play such bloody awful turgid Rugby, another question who in the England set up would have a place in one of the top 4 sides certainly not Billy V.

[Nigel Med]

I'm conflicted.

 I want the team do well for the players, they didn't pick the team or decide game plan, they have put a lot of work in to get to this point, but also, if not more importantly, for all those who've worked to get them there. Their parents, wives and families, coaches who've worked with them through their career especially when they were children, the clubs and schools they played at when young and supported them and the myriad of people who have been involved supporting them in other ways.

On the other hand, if they do get to the semi-final or even further the RFU will be able to point to it and claim their approach is working. Not only would that be an insult to anyone who can see but also a calamity for the future of the game. We really can't go on playing this a type rugby at international level as its so obvious that we are being left behind and as others have pointed out, if that's how England play then players who want to play for England will have to learn to play that way at club level. It will be made even worse if they bring in central contracts.

I would love to throw my full support behind England but it's virtually impossible to do so with the frankly abysmal rugby they are playing coupled with a coaching team selecting players who are so past their best it's embarrassing. England may well sneak past Fiji but they will then face the winner of France v South Africa (I would expect France to prevail) either of whom will absolutely hammer England. France beat us at Twickenham in the Six Nations with a record score, if we meet them in a world Cup Semi Final on home soil I would expect that record to be smashed. Perhaps that will be enough to make the RFU see what every rugby supporter in England is seeing which is that things are not working and cannot continue in the present form.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

For me it is the difference between the grunts and shouts when England somehow win a scrum (often through cheating, oh, I know, let's call them 'dark arts' like the commentators do), or the whinging and moaning of fazlet and billy at the ref. Versus the sheer joy that I saw whilst watching Portugal the other day. THAT game for me is what rugby is about, including what happened later in the changing rooms. Seeing the heart of those players. They didn't just empty their tanks, they went much further than that, for some of them this was their 'last' game.

I don't enjoy watching a game with England on the pitch.

[Lwasp]

To be fair its much easier to act and react like that when your sole objective is to win one game, any game.

I loved that game, it was great to watch, but Portugal had nothing to lose given the draw with Georgia was being called a win but for the last kick. If watching games with nothing resting on it is your thing then the bottom of the Prem match-ups without relegation at season end are for you. 

What I find pretty crap is the press attempts to pile on this narrative of no-one supports England anymore. The Times today has a story about the 1000s of unsold tickets available for the 1/4 final in Marseille "even though England qualified 2 weeks ago". The tickets on the official sale website didn't go on sale until yesterday, so doesn't matter when England qualified you couldn't buy them any earlier. I checked the resale site Sunday night and there were 135 tickets available, Monday night a little under 300, by yesterday near 2000. So ticket holders are slowly putting unwanted seats up for sale. The Times has a dig at England clinging to the line these are Aussie ticket sellers. Wouldn't surprise me, same happened in 2007 in France and 2019 in Japan.

It's not so much not supporting England, my Marseille weekend in Week 1 was bloody expensive. Trains or flights and hotels have surge priced to the max. Not being able to go and not wanting to go are not the same thing at all.

[WonkyWasp]

Sorry Lwasp  -  Nelly and Nigel Med said it all for me.  I have not been a supporter of England/Saracens for many years now (about 7 or more)  despite being English.  I dislike Fazlet/Itoje/EJ et al beyond belief and their 'play' and 'dark arts'   are reprehensible.  And embarrassing. 

[Shugs]

I think for me England struggling is a means to an end. Ironically that end is England not struggling! Say, for example we squeeze past Fiji, we?ll be contesting a SF which can easily be spun as a good news story despite the fact we?re not very good. And that?s not an opinion, that?s fact based on results. If the narrative that we did ok prevails no change will happen. When you throw into the mix that we?re incredibly dull to watch and somewhat unlikeable in our antics it?s even clearer that a change is required.

[WonkyWasp]

Sadly,  I think Eddie has a lot to answer for.  OK, he  wasn't alone but he had more opportunity than any other English manager to lead them to great (all right then, better) achievements.  He is now seemingly working his magic on Oz. 

[DGP Wasp]

I loved that game, it was great to watch, but Portugal had nothing to lose given the draw with Georgia was being called a win but for the last kick. If watching games with nothing resting on it is your thing then the bottom of the Prem match-ups without relegation at season end are for you. 

England also had nothing to play for, with the group already won, so the argument that games are typically more open and entertaining with nothing resting on them doesn't really stack up!

[mike909]

Several things come together with England - that really require a line in the sand if change is going to come....

The investment in age group especially from around 2006, led to England getting good results at JRWC and I saw a back three of Wade, Watson and Yarde tear apart a more than decent Wales U-20 team in the 6N's. It was very liberating to watch

Lancaster was starting to make progress. I think he was underrated. 80% 6Ns record and touring NZ, and beating them in a really good AI performance - before the RWC foul up. And that conveyor belt of player from the U-20's was handed over to Jones...Who was called a genius for winning one GS, but managed to also produce 3 of the equal worst 6Ns ever whilst seemed enthralled by the Sarries "mafia". All whilst pee'ing off players (my bias) like Dan R who were never given a chance. And giving games to players like Martin from Tigers when he's played less than 8 Prem games....

One really good (Japan-a-like) win in the RWC was allowed to reinforce the all powerful Jones' position. And that surely built the regime that had 17 assistant coaches over a short period and post 2020 a clear drop off in both performance and results and seemingly attitude within the camp. We got the hint with John Mitchell joining. And when Jones was sacked - Nick Evans reported (in Graniad article) that England had no systems and were lacking, generally.

And that allowance of all the good work done with junior/age group teams to go to waste whilst England played increasingly at the whim of the coach and we see the evidence of all those failings in a performance like that vs Samoa. England, an unlikeable and poorly performing team.

And if the rumours are correct for this w/e - Ford dropped, OF at 10 and Smith at 15....Seems like making it up as you go along - with the undropable Farrell at the heart of matters.

We'll only see if this was all "just for the RWC" when we see the squad for the 2024 6Ns. But the Jones/Sarries era has not made supporting England an easy gig.....

[WonkyWasp]

Surely Japan can't be daft enough to take Eddie on board given  his past history with England and with Oz?  Also his apparent double dealing??   George Smith is a coach (I think) with Japan.  Wonder if he'll stay?

[Lwasp]

Sorry Lwasp  -  Nelly and Nigel Med said it all for me.  I have not been a supporter of England/Saracens for many years now (about 7 or more)  despite being English.  I dislike Fazlet/Itoje/EJ et al beyond belief and their 'play' and 'dark arts'   are reprehensible.  And embarrassing.

I fully understand Wonky. I'm not trying to persuade anyone they should support this England. I was a season ticket holder at Wasps because I too liked a certain brand of rugby, this England is certainly not playing it. But, I also think discussions of the state of our game are way more nuanced than the press make it, and once a narrative sticks its very hard to talk about anything else.

There were more empty seats in the England Argentina game than the Scotland South Africa one, notably in premium seats (either Cat 1 and/or hospitality). Easy to say England's boring style put people off, but the reality is England didn't set the prices and Cat 1 for England's game were ?84/ticket more than for the Scotland fixture. Didn't ever see that in the reports.

[JF]

What worries me us that when we get knocked out there will be another investigation into why we did so badly which comes to the conclusion that, far from being too Borthwickian, we weren't Borthwickian enough.

I say that partly tongue in cheek but there's more than an element of truth in there.

[Nrgee]

There we go Ford dropped for he who cannot tackle. Just like the football team pick the name and the team they play for rather than form.🤔

[NellyWellyWaspy]

What worries me us that when we get knocked out there will be another investigation into why we did so badly which comes to the conclusion that, far from being too Borthwickian, we weren't Borthwickian enough.

I say that partly tongue in cheek but there's more than an element of truth in there.

Ah yes, but for me that is not something to worry about. For the RWC, the damage was long ago done. Can it get rescued by the next RWC? Not sure. But we have enough time for 2031, assuming I am still around by then.

[mike909]

What worries me us that when we get knocked out there will be another investigation into why we did so badly which comes to the conclusion that, far from being too Borthwickian, we weren't Borthwickian enough.

I say that partly tongue in cheek but there's more than an element of truth in there.

Ah yes, but for me that is not something to worry about. For the RWC, the damage was long ago done. Can it get rescued by the next RWC? Not sure. But we have enough time for 2031, assuming I am still around by then.

It's possible. Reinstating the age group emphasis would be a useful step regardless - to ensure that in '31 there are still good junior players coming through. Just like from 2008 onwards.

But for the next RWC, it will require some quite brave decisions on selection of players, central contracts or similar, relationships with clubs and perhaps a new coach. The damage was done mainly with a set of players that mostly ought not be in consideration for the next 6Ns, let alone the RWC 27.

England have lost a lot of talent by pee'ing people about, have done similar since 2019 with the assistant coaching team and were increasingly - it seems - drawn into a Jones master plan. When there really wasn't one.

So I'd hope by 6Ns next year, we've seen the back of Farrell, Youngs, Care, Manu, both Vuni's, Lawes, George, Cole, Marler, Daly and May. And we're looking at a very different selection and mindset. I don't think there's a lack of talent to be at least competent. It was 4 6N's ago we were last competent. And that was off the back of the RWC.

But damn all will happen without the RFU accepting that it's not the all seeing and all powerful visionaries they think they are. So, I'm not hopeful.