SURPRISE SURPRISE

[westwaleswasp]

Eddie selects each squad the professional way- with a list of names, a hat, blindfold, a donkey, a coin, a set of role playing twenty sided dice, and a pin..... Would be about as effective as whatever method he does use, and provoke rather less debate. Still, I would expect anything from him now, short of Cipriani and Robson, so I won't be surprised when the final squad is with us. I am almost bored of the WC before it starts. How sad. Maybe if I had another nationality I would feel different, but right now the WC produces a wave of indifference in me....

[BG]

"The big worry would be Cipriani going "missing" in a big crutial match like he has done in the past. Jones just cannot have that happen.'

Which is a coaching issue.

Haven't some current players shown the same characteristics as well recently, where plan A was working for a short period but then the opposition countered that plan but Faz and Youngs kept to the script and couldn't see that something needed to change.

The Scotland match must haunt some of them.

[mike909]

"The big worry would be Cipriani going "missing" in a big crutial match like he has done in the past. Jones just cannot have that happen.'

Which is a coaching issue.

Haven't some current players shown the same characteristics as well recently, where plan A was working for a short period but then the opposition countered that plan but Faz and Youngs kept to the script and couldn't see that something needed to change.

The Scotland match must haunt some of them.

Both this and last season

And - vs SA in SA before playing Cips and winning through guile

Plan A went like we were the ABs on acid (metaphorically!) and when SA decided to change the point of attack - we looked hopeless for long periods of the game

Ditto France in 2018.

[mike909]

Brown may have just been given a break in the leadup to a grueling RWC camp. Not the youngest anymore, same with Cole. Build some depth and rest some older heads.

That's generous imo, for me Brown didn't give the impression he was "being rested" in any number of interviews. If he was being rested, then he wouldn't, surely, have gone to SA to play wing when there were quite a few wings - if you were looking to build depth - who could have done with some game time?

[Shugs]

The point is it may be right and it may be wrong that Cipriani can't take instruction and can go missing. It's up for debate. What doesn't seem to be in question is that Jones thinks there is some sort of issue hence the repeated non selection. For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.

[Raggs]

Brown may have just been given a break in the leadup to a grueling RWC camp. Not the youngest anymore, same with Cole. Build some depth and rest some older heads.

That's generous imo, for me Brown didn't give the impression he was "being rested" in any number of interviews. If he was being rested, then he wouldn't, surely, have gone to SA to play wing when there were quite a few wings - if you were looking to build depth - who could have done with some game time?

I certainly wouldn't have told the players i was just resting them.

[mike909]

And taking him to SA was for what reason?

No, you might just leave a player out - and let them stew. That could go one of two ways - but if I was doing that - and wanted him rested after a long season - he sure ain't going to SA to play wing so reducing the opportunity to look at actual wing options

But my main issue with England has been the inability, too often, regardless of selection, to change in game and allow teams to make a comeback

This Squidge Rugby vid - says it better than me and is quite funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQqdG2l0AU

[Raggs]

Because Daly at fullback was a huge risk and if Daly completely blew it Eddie wanted an option? If i recall correctly our other main wing options were also unavailable at the time.

[Gaz]

For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.

On that we will never agree. I guess it comes down to your philosophy and views on how rugby could be played.

 Test rugby is a game of percentages and reliability so in that respect Farrell fits,  he is consistent, but consistently about 70% of the player that Cipriani is. Ford is a myth or an enigma depending on your viewpoint.

[Raggs]

Ford is a very good 10 indeed in my mind.

Cips is exceptional, but Cips plays like Cips, and pretty much only like Cips. Which means all the attack has to be based on Cips, and on the running lines Cips wants. I suspect Ford could play a similar game, and achieve something of a decent enough like for like replacement if Cips was injured etc. But the issue is, do you want the Cips attack, or do you want your own patterns with players who'll adapt to them?

I think the basic fact is he should have been in the England squad for many years now, with the attack widely based on him, with Ford a very able backup/last 20 etc. However, he's not been in the squad, and large parts of that have been solely on him, nothing to do with his talent. So once we're in a position where a decade (not exactly, but you know what I mean) has been "lost" without him, I don't see the point in crowbarring him in.

[baldpaul101]

But my main issue with England has been the inability, too often, regardless of selection, to change in game and allow teams to make a comeback

If you are right here Mike, what would be the point of taking Cips then?

[Hymenoptera]

For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.

On that we will never agree. I guess it comes down to your philosophy and views on how rugby could be played.

 Test rugby is a game of percentages and reliability so in that respect Farrell fits,  he is consistent, but consistently about 70% of the player that Cipriani is. Ford is a myth or an enigma depending on your viewpoint.

Ford looked world class in last years terrible tigers squad. Faz is Faz.

Cips only looks world class on the front foot, as shown with his history of being unable to influence the 'Big Games' with teams under pressure.

 That for me is why he doesn't get selected, by multiple international coaches.

[Shugs]

For me it's simple and much though I enjoyed watching Cipriani at Wasps I think overall Farrell and Ford are better 10's.

On that we will never agree. I guess it comes down to your philosophy and views on how rugby could be played.

 Test rugby is a game of percentages and reliability so in that respect Farrell fits,  he is consistent, but consistently about 70% of the player that Cipriani is. Ford is a myth or an enigma depending on your viewpoint.

Yes, depends on what you want. Cipriani is an outstanding talent of that there is no doubt. But I don't think he can control a game like Ford and Farrell at international level. And international coaches crave that control.

[mike909]

But my main issue with England has been the inability, too often, regardless of selection, to change in game and allow teams to make a comeback

If you are right here Mike, what would be the point of taking Cips then?

Fair call - and probably not a lot

That said, the SA tour suggested some merit in Cips...

[westwaleswasp]

I think Cipriani is simply a better version of Ford- able to play in heavy traffic that Ford, for all his vision,  simply cannot do. Egregious mistakes can happen with Cipriani, but then Ford was never immune to them.
For me Faz has only ever looked class as 12, and England are miles better with a second distributor at twelve. We had great success with Farrell/Ford, but it went wrong when Ford lost form. The solution for me would have been to replace Ford with Cipriani back then, and continue with the game plan.  Rumours, and they are just rumours, are that Farrell/Cipriani would not work as Farrell preferred Cipriani to be deployed 250 miles away on club duty for whatever reason, whether that be Ford's friendship with Farrell, or something personality related.

I have struggled to work out Eddie's selections on and forever after the SA tour, my impression from the outside is that he thought that he should have freshened up the selection and when that did not work, it bought the changes he made in selection bought a concomitant change in the game plan. I think the game plan was fine, give or take, and the issues may have come from the rumoured over-beasting of the players in training and a lack of new blood during the winning run- when matches like Italy should have allowed a bit of selectoral freedom to look at options for Brown, for example. Instead we got Daly at 15 on tour in SA.

For me the talk pre-Eddie was of Eddie being a short term boost coach who looks for attitude and no frills, which is what we got.
 
Once Farrell goes to ten, England lose flexibility.