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Author Topic: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond  (Read 5392 times)

Heathen

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Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« on: October 18, 2019, 07:45:32 PM »
Is the fall of 15% over 3 months concerning?

https://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/retail-bonds/company-summary/XS1221940510ZZGBPUKCP.html

Perhaps one of our number who understands all this can give us an insight. Does it indicate that all is not well? I hope not!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 07:47:46 PM by Heathen »

backdoc

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2019, 08:36:34 PM »
Thanks Heathen - I think I will buy.

NellyWellyWaspy

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2019, 08:41:31 PM »
It simply means that there are people selling, and not many buyers. It is a specialist stock. If you believe Wasps will be able to pay it back, then it is a very good deal right now. Somebody wants out NOW, and can't find a buyer, so the price falls till someone buys. Given that I suspect that a great many 'investors' are actually Wasps supporters with a lot of spare cash, and the profile of those supporters I would suspect are elderly, some will, unfortunately pass on, and their estate may wish to liquidate those assets they left behind.

Nothing sinister though, I suspect.

Neils

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2019, 08:56:13 PM »
Might be an attractive price for Joyless!
Let me tell you something cucumber

Shugs

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2019, 09:07:57 PM »
My opinion is that this is not much to worry about. It's a fairly niche market and someone just can't offload at the moment. NWW sums it up better than me above and I agree.

SteveTodd

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2019, 06:54:59 PM »
My opinion is that this is not much to worry about. It's a fairly niche market and someone just can't offload at the moment. NWW sums it up better than me above and I agree.

But the running yield on the current bond is over 9%! So it looks like they can't issue a replacement bond less than that, which to me, looks like an unsustainable rate.

Dgwasp

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 08:27:21 PM »
I don't think it is anything to worry about at present as long as we can pay the interest payments.  However, for refinancing, assuming we do go down the bond route again, we will need to offer something which is competitive against relative interest rates and have adequate security/confidence that we can make the bond repayments. 

This means I would assume we would probably need to offer a more attractive rate of return than the current 6.5%. Which means that Wasps costs in turn are likely to rise, unless the amount to be borrowed can come down somehow.

Assuming nothing major happens, ordinarily the bond price should start to rise as the repayment date approaches because you potentially can buy in at current rate of 700 and get 1000 back in return.

It will be interesting to see what the plan is for refinancing over the next 48 months.  If they go with another bond I would expect them to try and line this up sooner rather than later. 

One thing that might be a bit of a cloud is the EU decision over potential wrong doing over the sale as this potentially affects investor confidence in the security against the bond.

SteveTodd

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2019, 09:08:58 PM »
I know all about the current bond, I have £67k invested in it. But if you have to buy in at 70% on a re-issued bond, you are right there is a potential 30% upside. But no one is going to invest at 6.5%, when the current bond is trading at about 70%!

The point is that the market is judging it as only being worth 70%! So a new bond would have to offer a coupon rate of 9.3% to maintain the status quo, so probably 9.5% to 10% as a sweetener! That is unsustainable, because Wasps would have to pay so much more interest, and they are losing money annually on the current situation.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 06:27:11 AM by SteveTodd »

BG

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2019, 11:32:54 PM »
I know all about the current bond, I have almost £70k invested in it. But if you have to buy in at 70% on a re-issued bond, you are right there is a potential 30% upside. But no one is going to invest at 6.5%, when the current bond is trading at about 70%!

The point is that the market is judging it as only being worth 70%! So a new bond would have to offer a coupon rate of 9.3% to maintain the status quo, so probably 9.5% to 10% as a sweetener! That is unsustainable, because Wasps would have to pay so much more interest, and they are losing money annually on the current situation.

Blimey.. I feel that I've wandered into the Financial Times website... if you're new to rugby.. then why did you invest?

SteveTodd

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 05:22:21 AM »
I know all about the current bond, I have almost £70k invested in it. But if you have to buy in at 70% on a re-issued bond, you are right there is a potential 30% upside. But no one is going to invest at 6.5%, when the current bond is trading at about 70%!

The point is that the market is judging it as only being worth 70%! So a new bond would have to offer a coupon rate of 9.3% to maintain the status quo, so probably 9.5% to 10% as a sweetener! That is unsustainable, because Wasps would have to pay so much more interest, and they are losing money annually on the current situation.

Blimey.. I feel that I've wandered into the Financial Times website... if you're new to rugby.. then why did you invest?

I actually invested just over £67k, but will get back over £77k (and because capital gains are tax free on individual corporate bonds it is equivalent to a gross £12.5k / 18.7% gain) if they mange to refinance. I'm invested in a lot of things, you don't necessarily need to know all the ins and outs of the day to day running of every 'industry' that you invest in, but to answer your question, I invested it from a financial perspective (not a sporting perspective), and this was my reasoning. I obviously was aware that there was a risk, that's why it was priced below £1 (when I invested). But because the bond is secured on the stadium I thought (and still do, but now to a lesser extent) that the risk was worth it for the high yield and tax free capital gain on the bond value.

But I must admit that I didn't expect such a poor start to the season, which I think if it leads to relegation will make any refinancing package much more difficult. I'm hoping that the defeat to London Irish is more a case that they are better than expected, rather than Wasps being much worse than expected.

I was also surprised that Wasps didn't make more of an effort to keep Coventry City playing at the Ricoh, that was a significant drop in income.

Also there was talk of no team being relegated this year, and an extra team being added to the premiership league, but that plan seems to have been rejected. Which is a shame because it would have meant no risk of relegation this season, less risk next season (with another team being a potential relegation candidate, and income from an extra two games.

So things haven't gone too well both on and off the field since I invested.

I think the refinance options are going to be:

1. Sale and leaseback of the Ricoh, they have previously stated that this is not an option, but they will not be able to avoid doing this if they do not find another option.

2. Sell the club (or part of it), by attracting another investor, maybe to Coventry City (but I can't see that going down well) or even floating it (Derek Richardson could hold a significant shareholding) and offering Wasp fans and other investors the chance to own part of the club.

3. Sell the non sport assets (eg the hotel/conference centre etc), but this would not raise enough on its own, so that would only be a partial solution in conjunction with something else happening.

4. Issue another corporate bond, but I do not think this would be possible, unless they improve their financial position by raising cash and income (maybe by getting Coventry City back and selling other assets as 3 above or selling part of the club as 2 above).

I can't think of any other way to refinance the bond, but maybe I am missing something, any ideas anyone?



« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 06:55:08 AM by SteveTodd »

BG

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 09:40:09 AM »
Quote

"I was also surprised that Wasps didn't make more of an effort to keep Coventry City playing at the Ricoh, that was a significant drop in income."

When your tenant continually sues you, at some point, as a landlord, you're going to say "enough is enough".

Last spring (or maybe before that), CCFC lost they umpteenth court appeal, with no more options to sue Cov Council and as a result, indirectly Wasps. As far as we know conversations took place to extend CCFC's lease. What Wasps didn't know was CCFC's owners had lodged a complaint to the EU Commission which I believe they now can't retract.

I think everyone at Wasps would love to be able to host CCFC but under the circumstances its a tad difficult. Have SISU even paid our court costs yet?

SteveTodd

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 10:05:17 AM »
Quote

"I was also surprised that Wasps didn't make more of an effort to keep Coventry City playing at the Ricoh, that was a significant drop in income."

When your tenant continually sues you, at some point, as a landlord, you're going to say "enough is enough".

Last spring (or maybe before that), CCFC lost they umpteenth court appeal, with no more options to sue Cov Council and as a result, indirectly Wasps. As far as we know conversations took place to extend CCFC's lease. What Wasps didn't know was CCFC's owners had lodged a complaint to the EU Commission which I believe they now can't retract.

I think everyone at Wasps would love to be able to host CCFC but under the circumstances its a tad difficult. Have SISU even paid our court costs yet?
I'm aware of what has transpired, but isn't it approx £200k per annum that they are losing out on? The problem with Wasps finances is that they are never going to be in a position to pay off the bond or even refinance it unless they improve their finances. Although I believe that solutions for Coventry to play at the Ricoh next year are being considered:
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/ricoh-arena-row-coventry-city-17137317
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 10:57:55 AM by SteveTodd »

BG

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2019, 10:35:07 AM »
I'm not sure if Wasps are losing £2m.. I think the rent was a lot lower but Wasps may have been making money from match day sales, but there will also have been costs in managing match day activities .

Without CCFC there though, Wasps might be able to create other revenue streams. We'll have to wait until the season is over to see how things transpire

I wonder what they are having to pay Birmingham FC? I know CCFC had to pay a £1m bond but I'm not sure if that was to Brum FC or the league to guard against them not paying rent.

SteveTodd

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2019, 10:57:05 AM »
I'm not sure if Wasps are losing £2m.. I think the rent was a lot lower but Wasps may have been making money from match day sales, but there will also have been costs in managing match day activities .

Without CCFC there though, Wasps might be able to create other revenue streams. We'll have to wait until the season is over to see how things transpire

I wonder what they are having to pay Birmingham FC? I know CCFC had to pay a £1m bond but I'm not sure if that was to Brum FC or the league to guard against them not paying rent.

You are correct, it was a typo, I thought that it was £200k, but on the link below it looks as if it was only £100k. I mean 'only' in comparison to Wasps annual losses, but of course £100k (plus sales) is a step in the right direction.Maybe the sales at Coventry's home games of the year contributes another £100k to make it up to £200k?

https://coventryobserver.co.uk/news/breaking-coventry-city-deal-completed-to-stay-at-wasps-owned-ricoh-arena-for-another-year-for-100k/

I reckon David Richardson's original plan was probably to simply to continually repay the bond by issuing another bond. But to make that possible the annual finances have to be much more healthier than they are. I'm not sure how we can significantly improve the finances to at least stop making losses. The bond price originally fell when Wasps accountants issued a warning that they were not going to be in a position to pay off the bond. I don't think that it would have had such a great impact if we were not losing £m's every year (I know that we made a profit last year, but that was down to that one off payment by CVC Capital Partners).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 10:58:41 AM by SteveTodd »

BG

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Re: Wasps Finance 6.5% bond
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2019, 11:32:01 AM »
I think Derek's plan was simply to help move Wasps so they didn't go bankrupt (Apparently Dai was paying for the diesel for the team bus towards the end of the High Wycombe days) and raise the necessary money by any means and then face whatever crops up after that.

I'm presuming the TV/PRL money and also sponsorship money is the biggest revenue stream but that is going to be pretty much constant and Wasps don't really have control over that.

It would be fantastic to have 30k people at each game but that's never going to happen. Hoping for a season average of about 14k is pretty decent considering Wasps have moved to a new area.

Unlike most other clubs Wasps have other revenue streams plus the proposed new hotel on car park C.

As long as investors (you) are still receiving a return I think most will accept a new proposal.. if investors (you) don't like what's being offered then you can sell up and move your money elsewhere and not worry about Wasps.

BTW.. if you're new to rugby.. how did you find out about the investment opportunity?