Saracens docked 35 points

[NellyWellyWaspy]

As a 'fan' who has paid good money to hope that 'my' side has a chance of winning, I do indeed feel cheated. I HAVE been cheated.

If Saracens remain in the Premiership, they will try something else and do it again and again. How many 'fans' will feel like me? Would I consider not renewing my season ticket if I thought it as all fixed by cheats? You bet I would.

The other 12 clubs need to consider this VERY hard. Letting Saracens stay in will seriously damage the credibility of the whole league. Why do I say this? Because Nigel Wray is arguing with the ref. Arguing a decision that is right at that. A 10m march backwards is not enough. He is showing no contrition. Quite the opposite. Everything he says tells us he will do something similar again. He cannot be trusted.

Would I bother to turn up for a Saracens game? What's the point? It wouldn't be a fair game. I would feel like the only reason to turn up would be to wave a Cheats flag and chant cheats all the way through the 'game'.

I really hope the Glaws fans do just that on Saturday.

[Westy68]

I wonder how many supporters will not go to a Saracens game, home or away, especially if the squad was full of all the international players.

I haven't gone to watch a game with Sarries in it for 2 seasons as i knew Saracens were cheating. I really hope all supporters boycott Saracens games, to show this is not acceptable and the integrity of the game has now a large blemish against it. Just because Sarries will find a loophole in the wording of co investment, they will still believe they have done nothing wrong.

We all need to show Saracens this is all very wrong

[mike909]

I really hope the Glaws fans do just that on Saturday.

I hope even more that Glaws win by 20+.......perhaps indulge in some "individual chanting" from the Shed ??

I can't get to many games at present and so pay for TV rights - and yes, I do feel cheated - I probably feel cheated on behalf of Exeter too, especially

[RogerE]

Look, if a player is offered £x plus other benefits with total up to £y & is assured its all above board and not to worry, do you honestly think they would be expected to do their own due diligence on whether its completely OK?

However, given the public questioning of what's been going on and given the fact they would have been going into work every day surrounded by the best players in the country, they MUST have been wondering how is was being achieved.

Saracens might not have dealt with the Agents directly, but every player has one, and they are recompensed based on what the player receives from the Club.

I would assume that the Saracens players must have had discussions with their agents about what to try to extract in way of income from that Club, and the players must have let the agents know what their deals were - unless of course they only let them know about the "in-cap" payments.

So either the agents were complicit, or the players withheld things from their agents, in which case they could be seen to be defrauding the agents of contracted fees

[Neils]

Look, if a player is offered £x plus other benefits with total up to £y & is assured its all above board and not to worry, do you honestly think they would be expected to do their own due diligence on whether its completely OK?

However, given the public questioning of what's been going on and given the fact they would have been going into work every day surrounded by the best players in the country, they MUST have been wondering how is was being achieved.

Saracens might not have dealt with the Agents directly, but every player has one, and they are recompensed based on what the player receives from the Club.

I would assume that the Saracens players must have had discussions with their agents about what to try to extract in way of income from that Club, and the players must have let the agents know what their deals were - unless of course they only let them know about the "in-cap" payments.

So either the agents were complicit, or the players withheld things from their agents, in which case they could be seen to be defrauding the agents of contracted fees

Not only agents but all players at this level have lawyers and accountants. I cannot believe that appropriate advice is not given.

[wasps]

There's surely only 2 ways these contact negotiations could have gone

1) Wray: hi player, come play for us. We won't officially pay you a lot, but we'll give you some of the books money. Keep quiet about it and we'll all win together

2) Wray: hi player. Welcome to Saracens. We'd really love to have you playing for us. In return, you'll win silverware and enhance your career record. We'll also help you setup a company so that you have your own business after your career finishes. We'll invest money in it together. This isn't a salary so is not directly related to anything in your club contract. We've discussed this with our lawyers and premier rugby, and can offer you £XXX as a salary.



Even now that it's come out, it's a grey enough area that none of us are confident that it won't stand up.
As such, as a player presumably being told that it's all above board, that premier rugby and the salary cap manager know all about it, there's very little that a player can do to prove that it is dodgy.
Even if a player does their due diligence, what do they do? They go to their agent who is paid to review these kind of things. If the agent agrees that an "investment" without guaranteed value doesn't constitute an income or salary then I really can't see any player walking away.

On top of that, it's not illegal.
It's all going to be above board as far as employment and tax law is concerned.

The only rule broken is the contract that Saracens have signed with premier rugby.




I can't believe that any of the players didn't think something was a bit fishy, but sometimes in life, good opportunities do come out of nowhere.

Ultimately I firmly believe that it's solely the club that have done wrong. At worst, the players have just sat back and happily reaped the trophies

[JF]

I may well get in contact with the London Borough of Barnet and ask them to take down the large number of Saracens signs around the borough. They never did it for the many football clubs that used to be located in the borough but have now left. Ironically, Barnet FC  no longer play in either the borough or disctrict if Barnet.

The local authority essentially owns the new stand until the 2018 loan is repaid and it has a 29 year payback period attached to it. So I guess they have a vested interest in the promotion of the EAs. i.e. demonstrating why they are such a great asset for the citizens and why lending them that sum of money in times of austerity was justified. Now they have to live with the cheating scandal and the fallout, good luck with that.

"The Cheating Borough of Barnet" does have a ring about it!

This is the borough that lost millions in the Icelandic banking saga, lost further millions in a recent fraud case thanks to their outsourcing and, in a comparatively minor instance, wasted £138,000 hosting the Olympic torch (yes, moe than a hundred grand so someone could run down the road, arsing up the traffic whilst holding a metal tube that was on fire).

[wasps]

As far as punishment is concerned, it's difficult.

The contract that Saracens presumably breached by going over the salary cap already has details of the possible punishments.
It was drawn up in the mistaken belief that no one would properly try to wreck it without caring about the reasons for it.

However, what it means is that premier rugby probably can't use the salary cap issue as a reason to throw Saracens out of the league.

Points deduction and fine already levied, and we're not sure that'll actually stop Saracens from qualifying for Europe.

The salary cap agreement is not with the European competition, so they won't be thrown out of that.



Every club forfeiting Saracens games would be an interesting approach.
It would massively raise the profile of the issue and would make Saracens a club that no one would want to sponsor as there wouldn't be any eyes on them if they're not playing.
However, it would likely devalue the entire League to the point that it too would probably lose its sponsorship

[RogerE]

On Glos Rugby Twitter
https://t.co/theK1ExVgM

I assume it is tongue-in-cheek...

[Rifleman Harris]

I quite like the reverse exclusion idea; the other 12 leaving and setting up a new competition....if it could be made to work.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

[BG]

I'm not here to roast the players. They will take anything that's thrown at them in terms of money but if you listen to Danny Care, it seemed to be an open secret that "perks of the job" was going too far.. those "perks" were attracting U18/20 talent and keeping that talent from there on in... which is why they are now.

Wasps have developed talent and then accepted to lose them when another club offered them a bit more money (when their contract was up).. recently, JCW, Will Stuart and Hughes.. fair play.. players will want to maximise their income ..

But..

I genuinely believe the Elliot Daly move kickstarted something in the background .. the straw that broke the camels back

[RogerE]

What happens about the point deduction if the review and then the appeals to the various courts that will almost certainly follow if Sarries (Wray) aren't happy with the outcome, drag on well into next season or beyond?

I assume the point deduction can't be actually applied until all the legals have finished, but if the legals drag on they might well qualify for next years ERCC, and it could have won it again before the various appeals have reached their conclusion.

[Marlovian]

Blaming players is a moot point but also according to Danny Care on the BBC podcast a "blind eye" was turned. That does not make it acceptable.

There's a request on this clip from 8 Mar 19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdG2NnBj0Fw by Craig Doyle on behalf of Premiership Rugby for whistle blowers to come forward.

I wonder if this happened?

[Neils]

On Glos Rugby Twitter
https://t.co/theK1ExVgM

I assume it is tongue-in-cheek...

Don't think so. Getting rid and not ordering more.

[RogerE]

I'm not here to roast the players. They will take anything that's thrown at them in terms of money but if you listen to Danny Care, it seemed to be an open secret that "perks of the job" was going too far.. those "perks" were attracting U18/20 talent and keeping that talent from there on in... which is why they are now.

Wasps have developed talent and then accepted to lose them when another club offered them a bit more money (when their contract was up).. recently, JCW, Will Stuart and Hughes.. fair play.. players will want to maximise their income ..

But..

I genuinely believe the Elliot Daly move kickstarted something in the background .. the straw that broke the camels back

If this is true I don't think it came from Wasps, as talking to a, non-playing side, Club Official last season it seems Wasps weren't too uptight about losing Daley, as he had been with us for a long time, they could understand him wanting to move on and they felt he "repaid" anything he owed the Club a long time ago. Hughes, on the other hand, they were livid about.