Dai Post Game

[Rossm]

Bobby Bridge reports:

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-rugby-reaction-dai-young-17228836

For all those calling for Dai,'s head, just what do you do about this?

"Two minutes to go we get a line-out just inside their 22, they get a yellow card and have one guy injured and we come off the top. Sometimes it beggars belief what our thinking is out there. Two minutes to go, we drive that lineout, we stay down there, the worst picture is we come away with a losing bonus point. We come off the top, get turned over then we go down the other end of the field and lose the bonus point."

I was watching last night and, having scored a try with a powerful maul, I was expecting to see more of the same. Couldn't believe what we actually did. Also, and Dai doesn't mention it, if we had done what he expected then Doggy wouldn't have copped a red card and probably a 3 week ban.

[Mellie]

Agree with Dai. However the coaching should address what should be done in certain situations and be drilled in training. Then there would be no need to say "I dint know why they did that". It should be second nature.

Billy should have been practicing kicking to the corner from different positions so he can  nail it and not leave us 20 meters out. The catch and drive would then almost always result in a try like it does for top teams. So, despite playing poorly, the last 3 minutes should be a well practiced scenario that would have given us a draw.

Instead we make it up. Continue to truck the ball up with no momentum, get penalised, lose field position, get a red card and no losing bonus point. Madness.

[Gaz]

Are the players not listening to the coaches, or are the coaches not coaching?

Either way, there seems to be a break down in communication.

[Raggs]

There's a big difference between the level I play at, and their level, but Wasps haven't had a powerful pack for some time. That can get into the thinking. Our squad has a relatively small pack, looking for parity and workrate for the most part, but often we'll come off the top for so long, then in the last 10 minutes try a maul, and go 10m forwards (better body positions), and even then not go back to it.

Perhaps a psyche of our maulc not being good enough, even when the evidence suggests otherwise.

My guess would be it's a player issue to be honest. The coaches can point out that things are going well, but players have to listen, and take that info in.

Having a forward as captain would probably make that easier, but then at the same time, in a game where the maul hasn't been going anywhere, but the backs have, you can end up with the same issue in reverse.

[mike909]

If anything triggers my "time for change" feeling, its a DoR who is confused by his team's thinking.

This ought not to be a mystery - it ought to be what is being coached and agreed in training. If the DoR is really saying this post match, it surely reflects upon the coaching team, the "management" rather than the players.

The contrast from our great second try and the rest of the play showed up just how bad the our game was, remembering Sharks left a lot of point on the pitch, it could have looked a lot worse.

[Rossm]

I also prefer a forward as skipper, and of course when Launch is with us, we'll have one. If he continues in the England squad, then I do hope he's more than just holding tackle bags. A waste of his time and ours.

[BG]

Ideally Searle's kick should have been closer to their 5m but we would have castigated Searle if he'd missed touch. He found touch.. so it should have been a secure ball to the front.. and drive it.. perhaps get a penalty.. or do pick and goes.. put Sale under pressure from Sale not to give a another penalty away.. at the very least it would tie fringe forwards in near to the maul/ruck.

Instead we move it in field away from our own support. If you're going to do that then the 2 centres need to know about it so they can clear out.

It makes me wonder if lineout calls are being made simply for the purpose of securing ball rather taking into account where the backs want the ball to move to .. which depends on what moves they are calling.

When I played scrumhalf.. I called the lineouts (by the end of the game i was running out of code words). I could see what was happening in previous lineouts and as soon as the ball went off the park I'd be looking to my 10.. a nod and a wink.. a few hand gestures.. and I'd know what the 10 wanted.. I'd then call the lineout accordingly to meet the requirements of my flyhalf.

I'm just wondering if there's a disconnect between what the pack think is best and what is probably the ideal option for the team as a whole.

This is down to the 9 and 10 to act as a pivot between the forwards and backs.

[Jac A]

The view that 'this needs coaching, that need coaching' etc is, in my opinion, not as easy as it sounds.

As Raggs suggests, we have played a certain way for a while and there will be a mindset. Sarries have played their game that way for years, it is coached into the side from the academy level and everyone buys into it. Hence they are always able to play to their game plan. Same with Exeter, they know they will go with their pack and trust them to do the job and they have played this way for ages. We can't change everything straight away, it's a mindset thing that needs a bit of time.

There are a whole load of things that need to be coached and only a certain amount of time to coach them in.

That said, our game management is all too often dire. The amount of errors that we make in the last 5-10 mins and the amount of penalties we give away in this time is poor and does need to be addressed but I have no idea how. Last night, I get the lineout but after their 17 was sent off I would have been tempted to call a scrum as Harrison had gone off injured so Oosthuizen would have come back on at loosehead, a backrow would have gone off giving us less chance of getting turned over and we may have got our scrum dominance back.

I'm sure that Dai and the coaches are trying to change things and address points. I don't think they are the best around and I do think we could do better but I also think that it's not easy to just change the whole coaching set up when our finances are in a state and they will have contacts that need to be honoured in someway. Getting rid of Dai would cost a fortune and I'd imagine that he'd only go if the bosses genuinely thought that we'd go down if they didn't and I'd expect them to have someone lined up ready to go. I have no idea who could come in as DoR or even head coach, I'm seeming Edwards' name again - he has a job with France already and has turned us down (to be fair most of the Dai must go is on DW).

[Shugs]

We made a similar mistake at the end of the Irish game. Throwing to the front at what was always going to be an uncontested line out allowing them to shove us into touch. Maybe this was in their minds. It all comes from the same place - our lineout has been unreliable for years.

[egg shaped man]

Jac A  is right, you do not see the Chiefs or Sarries ending a game like that.
What seems to be missing is a collective responsibility ! On Monday who is going to stand up and say I screwed that up, or this is what we should have done. And make it right next time. But as everyone is saying this has been going on too long, this ability to trust and play as a unit determined to win a game seems to be missing.
The reason people like Edwards is that you didn't cross him, if you screwed up he would let you know. Have the coaches been too 'nice' so as not to upset the prima donnas we had in the team and can not now change? Or do the coaches simply not have the authority to 'throw the hair dryer' .
Something has to change

[Heathen]

I am not sure that recruiting ABs  and other 'Kiwis' is the right call. Jimmy was the exception as he was in the NH for a long time before he came to us.

They play a different game down there - I know someone who has played down there for two seasons and the thinking is totally different to what Wasps do. He should know as he was in the Wasps academy for two years.

Why is it that the likes of Sarries and Chiefs never seem to recruit them. Saffas on the other hand, seem to thrive.

[Hymenoptera]

If anything triggers my "time for change" feeling, its a DoR who is confused by his team's thinking.

This ought not to be a mystery - it ought to be what is being coached and agreed in training. If the DoR is really saying this post match, it surely reflects upon the coaching team, the "management" rather than the players.

The contrast from our great second try and the rest of the play showed up just how bad the our game was, remembering Sharks left a lot of point on the pitch, it could have looked a lot worse.

I dont buy this at all Mike. If its a mystery to me then why wouldnt it be a mystery to him...and even more so because they do have coaching.
Players at this level shouldnt need to be coached basics, that's not what coaches do, they coach beyond common sense. Last nights performance wasnt one for a scapegoat.

[Hymenoptera]

I am not sure that recruiting ABs  and other 'Kiwis' is the right call. Jimmy was the exception as he was in the NH for a long time before he came to us.

They play a different game down there - I know someone who has played down there for two seasons and the thinking is totally different to what Wasps do. He should know as he was in the Wasps academy for two years.

Why is it that the likes of Sarries and Chiefs never seem to recruit them. Saffas on the other hand, seem to thrive.

Id say because most don't leave NZ unless its for mega bucks. Saffers will come for the price of a pub lunch. I dont think we can label the recruiting of NZ players as a wrong avenue, we had a saffer and we lost him for half a season, like Dai said, you wont lose a NZ player. That said, it has yet to work out.

[mike909]

If anything triggers my "time for change" feeling, its a DoR who is confused by his team's thinking.

This ought not to be a mystery - it ought to be what is being coached and agreed in training. If the DoR is really saying this post match, it surely reflects upon the coaching team, the "management" rather than the players.

The contrast from our great second try and the rest of the play showed up just how bad the our game was, remembering Sharks left a lot of point on the pitch, it could have looked a lot worse.

I dont buy this at all Mike. If its a mystery to me then why wouldnt it be a mystery to him...and even more so because they do have coaching.
Players at this level shouldnt need to be coached basics, that's not what coaches do, they coach beyond common sense. Last nights performance wasnt one for a scapegoat.

Ok - I certainly don't think I was referring to basics, I expect great skills as standard from professionals. - more the strategy that was presumably agreed in training, nor looking at scapegoats. Its more an overall view that when the DoR/Senior coach (for any team sport) suggests they are confused by what's going on, on the pitch, its probably time for everyone to have a long look in the mirror and ask some difficult questions sooner rather than later.

[Hymenoptera]

Thats exactly what I am saying, he should be confused and to say so is correct.
My wife went out for groceries yesterday, when she came back she had 1 bag of groceries and 2 bags of clothes. I was confused because we'd discussed what we needed and she went out to get them yet came back with something totally different. My point is, once they are out, you have no control of what happens even though you had a plan before they left.
True story BTW - and she forgot the pineapple, which i am still not best pleased about.