Who are the main candidates for relegation?

[Shugs]

It got a whole lot more possible with the points deduction.

The points deduction means zilch. They will be in positive points early in the New Year. All it means is they are very unlikely to win the league. So long as their team is fully funded within the cap and no adjustment is made they will roll over every team especially if they partially abandon Europe as McCall said.

Agree about them being in positive points. But I'm puzzled as to how they continue with a squad that's been found in breach of the rules. The lack of clarity on it is bizarre. They've already secured points, after the decision, with a squad the decision found against.

[Neils]

It got a whole lot more possible with the points deduction.

The points deduction means zilch. They will be in positive points early in the New Year. All it means is they are very unlikely to win the league. So long as their team is fully funded within the cap and no adjustment is made they will roll over every team especially if they partially abandon Europe as McCall said.

Agree about them being in positive points. But I'm puzzled as to how they continue with a squad that's been found in breach of the rules. The lack of clarity on it is bizarre. They've already secured points, after the decision, with a squad the decision found against.

They are guilty only the last three seasons not this until June 2020 when they can be assessed again. Undoubtedly by then Wray will have worked his magic and diverted funds to some other payment vehicle for his 95,000 internationals.  It is PRL and the other owners at fault for letting this continue. Nothing would have been touched if the young girl reporter from the Mail hadn't gone public.

[Shugs]

Of course that's technically correct but the cap hasn't moved and Sarries have signed more players. It wasn't as if they marginally went over, they breached by a considerable way. Surely we can't get into the lunacy of a cycle whereby they do nothing playing personnel wise and just get punished each year.

[SteveTodd]

Another huge result for a supposedly relegation candidate team, Bristol have just won away at Exeter after being 17:0 down.

[Neils]

Of course that's technically correct but the cap hasn't moved and Sarries have signed more players. It wasn't as if they marginally went over, they breached by a considerable way. Surely we can't get into the lunacy of a cycle whereby they do nothing playing personnel wise and just get punished each year.

Of course we can! Do you actually have any faith it will change.

[Shugs]

Of course that's technically correct but the cap hasn't moved and Sarries have signed more players. It wasn't as if they marginally went over, they breached by a considerable way. Surely we can't get into the lunacy of a cycle whereby they do nothing playing personnel wise and just get punished each year.

Of course we can! Do you actually have any faith it will change.

Fair point!!

[SteveTodd]

The bigger question is - will there be a relegation?

I think an even bigger question is how are wasps going to refinance the bond? Issuing another corporate bond offer does not look like an option. It would have to be offering a coupon price of about 8.5%, that doesn't look sustainable. So what does that leave? Sell and lease back? Selling off assets like the hotel, which does not appear to be enough by itself, but maybe an option in conjunction with other alternatives.

[Hymenoptera]

The bigger question is - will there be a relegation?

I think an even bigger question is how are wasps going to refinance the bond? Issuing another corporate bond offer does not look like an option. It would have to be offering a coupon price of about 8.5%, that doesn't look sustainable. So what does that leave? Sell and lease back? Selling off assets like the hotel, which does not appear to be enough by itself, but maybe an option in conjunction with other alternatives.

There's a thread for that already.
Wray is so egotistical he doesnt care

[BG]

The bigger question is - will there be a relegation?

I think an even bigger question is how are wasps going to refinance the bond? Issuing another corporate bond offer does not look like an option. It would have to be offering a coupon price of about 8.5%, that doesn't look sustainable. So what does that leave? Sell and lease back? Selling off assets like the hotel, which does not appear to be enough by itself, but maybe an option in conjunction with other alternatives.

New to rugby you've said?

[wasps]

Presumably, in official salaries, Saracens are within the cap.
It's the additional investments that we're assuming push them over.

So, if Wray says to his players. There won't be any more investments this year, but I'll sort you out when we can.... Then they're within the cap this season with no need to offload anyone.
Job done and nothing prl or the other clubs can do about it


It sucks

[RBB]

So, if Wray says to his players. There won't be any more investments this year, but I'll sort you out when we can.... Then they're within the cap this season with no need to offload anyone.
Job done and nothing prl or the other clubs can do about it

However if the investment is property then that is a tangible asset,which is enduring as long as the player is a part investor. The outcome would have to be asset is disposed of but any gains would have to be declared, or player steps out of the agreement meaning what they thought they would get is no longer available to them, or the player reduces investment amount to something that is paltry - similar to the previous point. Which ever way we look at it, the season has commenced with what I can only assume are intact investments and associated tangible assets, so there is still an issue.

When you look at Vunprop, there are some interesting filings, the Vunipola brothers own the business outright, after an initial Saffer (Wray sidekick) investment. Earlier this year they were served by a striking off notice which was later withdrawn, it appears to be related to late filings and charges. When you look at some of the filings, they own a house in South East London for example, 45 Alloa Road, which was purchased in March 2017, they took over the awfully named Vunprop in February 2017, where the value appears to have gone down, hence Nigel Wray's defensive point (not).

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10592745/filing-history

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/45-alloa-road/london/se8-5ah/20966016

The thing is most of the information being looked for is in the public domain, so once you know where to look and have all of the pieces putting the story together is pretty simple to make a case for the misdemeanours. However as we all know the EAs are the masters of the loophole technique.

[SteveTodd]

The bigger question is - will there be a relegation?

I think an even bigger question is how are wasps going to refinance the bond? Issuing another corporate bond offer does not look like an option. It would have to be offering a coupon price of about 8.5%, that doesn't look sustainable. So what does that leave? Sell and lease back? Selling off assets like the hotel, which does not appear to be enough by itself, but maybe an option in conjunction with other alternatives.

New to rugby you've said?

Very new to rugby, but I am not new to investment.

[BG]

So, if Wray says to his players. There won't be any more investments this year, but I'll sort you out when we can.... Then they're within the cap this season with no need to offload anyone.
Job done and nothing prl or the other clubs can do about it

However if the investment is property then that is a tangible asset,which is enduring as long as the player is a part investor. The outcome would have to be asset is disposed of but any gains would have to be declared, or player steps out of the agreement meaning what they thought they would get is no longer available to them, or the player reduces investment amount to something that is paltry - similar to the previous point. Which ever way we look at it, the season has commenced with what I can only assume are intact investments and associated tangible assets, so there is still an issue.

When you look at Vunprop, there are some interesting filings, the Vunipola brothers own the business outright, after an initial Saffer (Wray sidekick) investment. Earlier this year they were served by a striking off notice which was later withdrawn, it appears to be related to late filings and charges. When you look at some of the filings, they own a house in South East London for example, 45 Alloa Road, which was purchased in March 2017, they took over the awfully named Vunprop in February 2017, where the value appears to have gone down, hence Nigel Wray's defensive point (not).

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10592745/filing-history

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/45-alloa-road/london/se8-5ah/20966016

The thing is most of the information being looked for is in the public domain, so once you know where to look and have all of the pieces putting the story together is pretty simple to make a case for the misdemeanours. However as we all know the EAs are the masters of the loophole technique.

Officers attaches to Mako's company is

Exceed Cosec Services Ltd

And

Daniel Johannes Van Dr Heever  (which sounds a bit SA)

Both of those are registered at the same address .. if you click on the latter.. hey presto.. he's registered for a lot of property managment companies

If you search Exceed Cosec Services Ltd.. A lot of the related names are all mainly (I'm guessing) Saffa type names.. and nearly all of them are registered at the same address again

Bank House, 81 St Judes Road, Englefield Green, United Kingdom, TE20 0DF

So that must be the accountants address that are running all these interlinked companies.. if you do a search for that address then you see a very non descript building.

If you look at Wigglesworth company.... guess what..

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10592734/officers

Its the same names and companies and addresses all linked to him as well

[RBB]

And identical characteristics, the aforementioned Saffer sets it up, resigns almost immediately and hands over to an EA player. No wonder this was worked out, the fact that property is involved means there is a tangible transaction to scrutinise. I would be intrigued to see what other better qualified people make of this web of intrigue.

[westwaleswasp]

I would say, to answer the OP

Wasps/Tigers/Worcester and LI would be where I would lay money.

On the latter part of the thread, some expert diggers here, well done guys.