Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Saracens – a gain too far?  (Read 5580 times)

Fats

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Saracens – a gain too far?
« on: November 27, 2019, 12:19:33 PM »

NellyWellyWaspy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
  • Getting older a couple of minutes every day
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2019, 12:43:00 PM »
I sort of agree with the writer's logic.

My reply:

When rugby went professional, it was inevitable that the cap could not work. Saracens may well be the final straw and the other clubs will follow suit with cap breaking tactics. After that, we will be left with just a few clubs whose sugar daddies can afford to spend (write off) millions every year spending £10-15m a year on salaries, going up exponentially each year. Most clubs will go under, leaving us with maybe a handful of clubs. Fans will walk away in droves (I will, as will my dad). We will be left with what? No game, that's for sure. I can see the home nations system also collapsing as players are tempted by ever bigger wages outside their home nations 'regions'. So, whose owners have deep enough pockets? Saracens, Sale (maybe), Bristol, Bath (maybe). Who can't afford this dash to the bottom? Exeter, Leicester, Wasps, Harlequins, Newcastle, Worcester, Gloucester, London Irish, Northampton. That will destroy the Premiership, and most players will have no club to play for. Somewhat self-defeating then.

You can applaud what Saracens have done. In my view, it will be the end of Rugby Union as we know it. and what it will become and want nothing to do with. You have not followed your discussion and logic through to its inevitable end.

BG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2019, 01:06:20 PM »
It makes you wonder why CVC invested?

Shugs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4422
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2019, 06:44:00 PM »
Not sure I agree with much of that article. Seems to say that Sarries should almost be applauded for scrutinising every loophole and almost comes across that they haven't done anything wrong but being good eggs they've paid up anyway. The salary cap is a great thing for the game in my opinion for lots of very good reasons. It works - if it is abided by. No-one wants a two or three team league that football sees at the top level. The salary protects us from that.

coddy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1353
  • Wasps Rugby Supporter
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2019, 06:59:05 PM »
The author has not researched his topic very well or chooses to ignore certain facts. I don't know who the chap is but I suspect he lacks a open mind as well as an average club rugby supporters point of view.

wasps

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2019, 07:42:30 PM »

unfortunately, it's often the victors that write history.
If Saracens ultimately get away with this, or at least get their way, then in a few years it'll be the "brave Saracens who fought the system to lead us to the new rugby world"

If, as some suspect, their actions result in the abolishment of the cap, and just a few rich clubs surviving, it could well be the dawn of a European Super League.
If that happens, you can bet your life that Nigel Wray will be paraded as the most influential man in NH rugby

NellyWellyWaspy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
  • Getting older a couple of minutes every day
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2019, 08:15:44 PM »

unfortunately, it's often the victors that write history.
If Saracens ultimately get away with this, or at least get their way, then in a few years it'll be the "brave Saracens who fought the system to lead us to the new rugby world"

If, as some suspect, their actions result in the abolishment of the cap, and just a few rich clubs surviving, it could well be the dawn of a European Super League.
If that happens, you can bet your life that Nigel Wray will be paraded as the most influential man in NH rugby

I think that is what the writer was alluding to. There are two alternative end games here. Let us take a look.

Wray admits he is breaking the cap. We all know he is also channeling money in all manner of ways to players, current and past. I suspect the total is way more than any here would imagine. He will not change his attitude, but find better ways to hide what he is doing.

In turn, that leaves the other 12 clubs in tough position. Whatever they spend, he will always outspend them. They cannot effectively sanction him, as they need a unanimous vote to unseat him or change the rules. The full details will never become public, unless someone has access to the unredacted report. Even were that to be published, Wray would simply shrug it off.

So, we face a situation where Saracens can pretty much win anything they want to. The other clubs will lose revenue and players. They will lose paying/attending fans (me included). Much as the other 12 clubs are losing money now, they will lose a lot more, at an ever faster rate.

One by one, the owners will give up. Can they find buyers? I doubt it. Look at Worcester and Leicester. So, the clubs will go under. That is the consequence of inaction.

Or, and I don't know if it is even possible, the 12 clubs create a new league. Sod the RFU and PRL, and sod Saracens. Can they pull out. Would they? To me, it seems the only choice. Set a much lower cap, more akin to what the other home nations are spending, something affordable. Probably a half or a third of the current cap.

Otherwise, maybe 2 or 3 clubs, in addition to Saracens will be all that is left. To join some sort of super league. Saracens will have drained talent not just from English clubs, but from all the Home Nations. Maybe only one club will survive from each of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Throw in maybe 4 or 5 French clubs, and you have that League. The other clubs will have been bankrupted.

Money corrupts, and our beautiful game is dying from it.

BG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2019, 08:41:00 PM »
Future investors in club rugby are going to be very few and far between.. at the moment we are relying on rich altruistic owners.. they will run out.

Tiggers 2 main owners announced they would like to sell their shares in the club. As far as I know nothing has been announced and that's despite tiggers being asset rich

English rugby isn't like English football that has a worldwide audience. We're not going to get foreign billionnaires pumping money in.  PRL management are shooting themselves in the foot by being secretive and seemingly toothless.

The other 12 PRL clubs need to push PRL management.. the PRL board are effectively employed by the clubs

backdoc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1188
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2019, 08:50:48 PM »
I hope the penny drops soon.

This is not about Saracens rugby club.

It is all about Nigel Wray and his ego.

westwaleswasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2019, 09:57:18 PM »
A euro league won't work as the celtic nations won't want it, nobody in those countries will bankroll it and it would threaten the health of the celtic and SH nations as the league of sugar daddies suck up all the best NH and SH talent. I can't see WR allowing that, I can't see it being anything other than an Anglo French league of six to eight.
I can't see broadcasters being especially interested, maybe Sky take it. If the rest of the prem stay firm they will win this, as long as Bath, Sale maybe and Bris don't go with Wray he won't get his league.


Neils

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14759
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2019, 10:44:38 PM »
I hope the penny drops soon.

This is not about Saracens rugby club.

It is all about Nigel Wray and his ego.

This is the whole point that needs addressing.
Let me tell you something cucumber

mike909

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2430
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2019, 05:17:26 PM »
Sarries this week - of course any club could afford a starting XV with 529 international caps (source Wiki)

A mere average of 35 caps per player.....


5 Elliot Daly (36)
14 Sean Maitland (42)
13 Duncan Taylor (23)
12 Brad Barritt © (26)
11 Alex Lewington (0)
10 Owen Farrell (83)
9 Richard Wigglesworth (33)
1 Mako Vunipola (63)
2 Jamie George (47)
3 Titi Lamositele (28)
4 Will Skelton (18)
5 George Kruis (43)
6 Maro Itoje (37)
7 Jackson Wray (0)
8 Billy Vunipola (50)


Neils

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14759
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2019, 06:06:29 PM »
Sarries this week - of course any club could afford a starting XV with 529 international caps (source Wiki)

A mere average of 35 caps per player.....


5 Elliot Daly (36)
14 Sean Maitland (42)
13 Duncan Taylor (23)
12 Brad Barritt © (26)
11 Alex Lewington (0)
10 Owen Farrell (83)
9 Richard Wigglesworth (33)
1 Mako Vunipola (63)
2 Jamie George (47)
3 Titi Lamositele (28)
4 Will Skelton (18)
5 George Kruis (43)
6 Maro Itoje (37)
7 Jackson Wray (0)
8 Billy Vunipola (50)

This is SO wrong.
Let me tell you something cucumber

Mellie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2019, 07:16:55 PM »
Sarries this week - of course any club could afford a starting XV with 529 international caps (source Wiki)

A mere average of 35 caps per player.....


5 Elliot Daly (36)
14 Sean Maitland (42)
13 Duncan Taylor (23)
12 Brad Barritt © (26)
11 Alex Lewington (0)
10 Owen Farrell (83)
9 Richard Wigglesworth (33)
1 Mako Vunipola (63)
2 Jamie George (47)
3 Titi Lamositele (28)
4 Will Skelton (18)
5 George Kruis (43)
6 Maro Itoje (37)
7 Jackson Wray (0)
8 Billy Vunipola (50)

Plus the bench:

16 Jack Singleton (3)
17 Richard Barrington (0)
18 Vincent Koch (21)
19 Nick Isiekwe (3)
20 Ben Earl (0) but was on SA tour 2018
21 Ben Spencer (3)
22 Manu Vunipola (0)
23 Nick Tompkins (0)

Not forgetting:

Carre (4)
Figalo (5)
Clark (1)
Willemse (6)
Loz (5)
Williams Carre (65)
Goode (21)

Shugs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4422
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Saracens – a gain too far?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2019, 08:42:06 PM »
Yeah but let's be fair - 18 of those are Australian caps.