Dai

[NellyWellyWaspy]

... but we really can't rule out a coach refresh. It doesn't have to cost the earth ...

Yes, we can rule out a coaching refresh. On two grounds; we don't have the money, and there are none to be had. I have more chance of waking up and looking in the mirror to see myself transformed into a handsome, amiable bloke.

That's what I am saying. To say what you said is not wishful thinking. It is way beyond wishful. It simply cannot happen. For as long as we clutch such straws, we will not, as fans, refocus our energy to one thing; getting behind the lads.

[Shugs]

Agree Nelly. This coaching issue seems to be an obsession. And yet the attack coach is the same chap we had when we were ripping it up. We've lost world class performers and are trying to adjust - it's as simple as that.

[HDAWG]

In that case pushing we can't afford anything just means we can't afford players or coaches and is a very stupid gamble. This is making relegation more likely.

[mike909]

... but we really can't rule out a coach refresh. It doesn't have to cost the earth ...

Yes, we can rule out a coaching refresh. On two grounds; we don't have the money, and there are none to be had. I have more chance of waking up and looking in the mirror to see myself transformed into a handsome, amiable bloke.

That's what I am saying. To say what you said is not wishful thinking. It is way beyond wishful. It simply cannot happen. For as long as we clutch such straws, we will not, as fans, refocus our energy to one thing; getting behind the lads.

Ok

Nothing will likely change if we carry on doing the same thing and expect a different outcome. Its really not a lack of support that's causing the players to play too often like they met in the car park. There needs to be a change in what we're doing or how we're being asked to play.

No changes - then we're back to "hoping for the best" and that's the way to be relegated.

BTW - I'd be delighted to be shown to be 100% wrong and the worst of the glass half full merchants, but all I see is a team that's not going anywhere which needs a refresh from somewhere. And if the alternative is being relegated - we can't afford not to make changes, surely?

[mike909]

Agree Nelly. This coaching issue seems to be an obsession. And yet the attack coach is the same chap we had when we were ripping it up. We've lost world class performers and are trying to adjust - it's as simple as that.

It doesn't matter if its the same guy. Newcastle were relegated with the same coaches that got them to 4th the previous season. Saints were going downhill fast with the mostly the same players and the same coaching set up that had previously worked so well.

Changes are not a cure all, but change ought to at least be being considered purely on results.

[HDAWG]

The difference between us this season and last season is good players. But we weren't great past season and we're awful this season. Common denominator is coaching. Other teams have recruited better and improved coaching, they're improving. We are not. At the very least we need new coaching structure if we cannot recruit better players.

[Shugs]

Agree Nelly. This coaching issue seems to be an obsession. And yet the attack coach is the same chap we had when we were ripping it up. We've lost world class performers and are trying to adjust - it's as simple as that.

It doesn't matter if its the same guy. Newcastle were relegated with the same coaches that got them to 4th the previous season. Saints were going downhill fast with the mostly the same players and the same coaching set up that had previously worked so well.

Changes are not a cure all, but change ought to at least be being considered purely on results.

Agree Mike but what you're saying with the examples you quote is that whilst coaches are undoubtedly important they don't make seismic differences.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Yes, we can rule out a coaching refresh. On two grounds; we don't have the money

What makes you think that?

[westwaleswasp]

Most people thought that the squad this year was equal or better than last at the start of the season, didn't they?
The back row looks good on paper and has depth we have not had previously, the front row has gone mostly well this year.
The backs have more options than last, and we have signed well in the backs with the now injured Vellacott, plus MM and the two wingers.Ok, Vellacott getting crocked was harsh, but we have found another 9, and Jacob looks the business.
So why do the backs look like a scratch team as a whole? Why do the fowards link so poorly? Confidence is a huge issue, for sure, that is obvious.
My suspicion is that they are playing a way that they have been told, and whilst away games in France might be a little less prescriptive, when it gets tight someone has hammered the message to play in the right areas, never to run from the 22, and to finish the moves patiently through the fowards unless it is clearly on or we have the advantage.

I don't know how much the coaching of Dai is to blame, anymore than I know how much input Cipriani had when playing or otherwise, but I do suspect that it is more than confidence and we are going down the route we last saw before the move when Dai tightened it up for a season abd we became a more forward orientated team for a short while.

[Gaz]

Ok, if it isn't the coaching and it is the quality of player, who is responsible for player recruitment?

[mike909]

Agree Nelly. This coaching issue seems to be an obsession. And yet the attack coach is the same chap we had when we were ripping it up. We've lost world class performers and are trying to adjust - it's as simple as that.

It doesn't matter if its the same guy. Newcastle were relegated with the same coaches that got them to 4th the previous season. Saints were going downhill fast with the mostly the same players and the same coaching set up that had previously worked so well.

Changes are not a cure all, but change ought to at least be being considered purely on results.

Agree Mike but what you're saying with the examples you quote is that whilst coaches are undoubtedly important they don't make seismic differences.

Well - what I was suggesting - was that just keeping the same coaches doesn't mean things will come right. Coaches - least in my view - always have a shelf life and sometimes that comes to pass quickly and across sports - it is the coaching team that take responsibility for performance. And we've seen the difference that a new approach can make as well as how quickly the wheels can come off

As an example - Eddie Jones - RWC final in 03, good following season, sacked after 8 loses from 9 the year after. But then turned SA around in 07 in short time

It may not be the case but it would be imo a mistake not to consider all avenues, including the coaching

[Brandnewtorugby]

Changing the coaches has worked for some teams, but not all. Leicester hasn't been mentioned much, but surely an example of how making a change could make things worse.

[Hymenoptera]

Quins, just above us with calls for Gustard to be sacked already

[HDAWG]

Leicester didn't find suitable replacements. Cockerill was class, Mauger was not given more time, O'Connor wasn't a smart signing, Murphy is out of depth and was supposed to be temporary and yet he hasn't been replaced yet.

Quins have performed awful recruitment and similar to us relying on a league coach for attack. Also Gustard was a huge risk.

Both of these teams have made bad decisions with change in management. We obviously don't just throw anybody in, we need to approach the best coaches. See Bristol, Northampton and Gloucester.

[Westy68]

Looks like it’s just a one team game, Sarries can pick and choose which games they can afford to lose, as They know they will win the important games.

If Saracens players don’t bother playing in the 6 nations they will finish 4th and win everything again.

I can’t see anyone challenging them in Europe. Only narrowly losing away to one of the best teams in Europe with they b team.

Looks like Sarries have got away with cheating and will dominate for many years or until Bristol find Their own way of dodging the salary cap