Is our attack really the issue?

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Something Nelly mentioned in the "How Many" thread got me thinking.  In essence it was that currently our set piece and defence has improved improved to the point where the issue is our attack.

I'm not convinced I agree, so I'd like to propose a different theory.

I'm going to start with a fairly big jump to an analogy.

A lot of you know I have been heavily involved in combat sports for a long time firstly as a competitor (average at best) and then as a coach (marginally better).  Mixed Martial Arts (Cage fighting/UFC) to most people consists of two disciplines, striking and grappling otherwise known as stand-up and ground fighting. To the very best it actually consists of three, the former two, with the addition of wrestling.  Wreslting is what bridges the other two and allows them to work together to create an effective fighter.  I won't go into detail, but all the most successful fighters have a background in wrestling along with other things.

One thing you often see is that a fighter breaks into the big time by being an extremely gifted grappler.  It's easy to dominate the lower leagues with a high evel of skill in grappling, but as they progress up the ranking they need to add effective striking to their arsenal.

They employ a specialist striking coach.

They raidly progress and gain a decent level of skill to their striking, but they lose all their ability as a grappler because they have no way to connect the two disciplines.  They find themselves competing in stand-up against specialists who are much better at it than they are, and they have no way to  transition to the grappling which would see them win.

I believe this is exactly what has happened with Wasps.

We had a great attacking game, we could do things that other teams could only dream of.  Whether it was with Jackson, Gopps, or Cips at 10 we were a genuine joy to watch.  Our defence sucked, but we didn't care because we just scored more tries and won anyway.

We lost our defence coach who wasn't brilliant, but had learned to work around out attacking structures, and brought in a new coach.

I believe Costello is a perfectly servicable defence coach, after all our defence is definitely more solid now than it has been for some time. But I feel he has not been able to link his defensive structures with our attack, and has inadvertently killed our ability to score.

To go back to my analogy, what we need is the wrestling coach.

We need someone who can create the bridge between defence and attack and allow us to do whichever is appropriate.

This is something we have struggled with for a long time, and I feel this is where Dai's weakness is.  I suspect he currently fulfils this role, and while he is doing his best, he absolutely needs to get someone in who is a specialist.

I don't think we need rid of him, to be honest I think the idea is preposterous. We wouldn't have a club without him. But I honestly believe the board of Wasps is doing him a massive disservice by allowing him to carry the can for the fact our coaching team is short an experienced person who understands both aspects of the game, and how to link them.

That's what we need, and until we get them we will continue to fail.

[Shugs]

Agree to some extent but another facet of the answer might lie in those who aren't having the best of seasons. Opinion will differ but I think most would acknowledge Sopoaga, Robson and Gopperth have not been at their best. I was excited by the Vellacott signing but he's been injured. So in the pivotal roles in terms of linking defence and shaping attacks our big names are struggling. As long as the pack can get somewhere near parity it is these roles that provide cohesion and direction and it is there that we are struggling.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I agree that having playmakers who are struggling will make a difference.  But even at our best we all seemed to acknowledge that teams like Chiefs and Cheats could swap people in and out without it affecting their ability to perform. Which we couldn't.

I think thats because they have that coherence in their sturctures.  They have the coaching glue that holds everything together.

And we don't.

[Hymenoptera]

We don't seem to have decision makers, football players if you will. We don't seem to have an ounce of nous. We dont have anyone that appears to be able to think for themselves. Watching Smith and Care putting Quins in the area's of play shows where we are being stiffled, we have zero game management. Making the opposition play in their own half is a form of defence in itself, we dont do this, in our own half we just bosh bosh bosh until we give up possession, which is in our own half, and put our selves under pressure, which in turn leads to poor decision making.
I'm going to single out Robson as a key individual to our demise, right or wrong. His decision making against LI cost us the game with the pointless 3. He is not giving us any momentum, he doesn't threaten the line, his kicking from hand is questionable, he looks so far from intl standard it's untrue. The fact that there were calls for our 3rd string to start says it all.
I'll also rinse Booj while i'm at it, if there is a decision to be made, he'll choose the wrong one. Plenty of effort but he doesn't have that 5% extra needed. In fact, I could rinse the wrong back line but i'll be here all day.
Summary - I'd ask Santa for Andy Goode to come out of retirement and play a game that gets us into the right positions to play, releasing pressure and giving us a half chance in the right area's of the pitch, meaning others don't have to make decisions they are obviously not qualified to make. I'll also ask that given so much of our play is based off the 9, that Robson has a xmas epiphany or takes some time off to see if the others have it in them to raise the standard at 9.
To finish on a positive, i'm pretty happy with how the forwards are playing, given our injury challenges.

[mike909]

The concerns for me are:
a) We're managing to be less than the sum of our parts
b) No one is taking a leadership role on the pitch
c) No one seems able to put their (football parlance) foot on the ball - per the LI game as an example

The question is "why"? And my view is that it is the club leadership including the coaching that sets the culture and enables players to work at their best. But when good players like Robson - injured or not - start playing like they are tyros rather than seasoned pros near RWC selection, then I have to look at the leadership/management side and wonder what's going wrong. Surely all these players don't stop playing well for no reason?

I enjoyed VV's posting btw, but it doesn't quite work for me, at least, when transferred to a team game scenario. And I can't exclude any of the coaching/leadership team from possible censure.  Its not so much that our attack is failing - though given the players lost that was likely regardless of coaching - its that the individuals are not working together like a team would. We see individual flashes of genius (Willis) but whilst a joy, we're not playing to a recognisable plan. That's a coaching issue, and one that could have any of the causes suggested, including,  the current DofR coming to end of his time.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

The concerns for me are:
a) We're managing to be less than the sum of our parts
b) No one is taking a leadership role on the pitch
c) No one seems able to put their (football parlance) foot on the ball - per the LI game as an example

The question is "why"? And my view is that it is the club leadership including the coaching that sets the culture and enables players to work at their best. But when good players like Robson - injured or not - start playing like they are tyros rather than seasoned pros near RWC selection, then I have to look at the leadership/management side and wonder what's going wrong. Surely all these players don't stop playing well for no reason?

I enjoyed VV's posting btw, but it doesn't quite work for me, at least, when transferred to a team game scenario. And I can't exclude any of the coaching/leadership team from possible censure.  Its not so much that our attack is failing - though given the players lost that was likely regardless of coaching - its that the individuals are not working together like a team would. We see individual flashes of genius (Willis) but whilst a joy, we're not playing to a recognisable plan. That's a coaching issue, and one that could have any of the causes suggested, including,  the current DofR coming to end of his time.

+1

My view too.

[westwaleswasp]

Personnel are different or off the boil, confidence is low. For me that is the key more even than coaching issues, which are real.

Robson is probably not the best in his position at the club post injury.

Lima continues to get defence from the many who know what a good bloke he is, who feel he is unfairly treated by the fora and press, but I would happily swap him for a Nicky Robinson of a few years ago, let alone a Cipriani.

9,10. Without the half backs firing the rest won't fall into place easily.

Wade was irreplaceable, and the best winger to have played in the league bar none.

I think Gopperth was outstanding but age, injury lay off, and the fact that we have a deep ten have neutered him.

Booj is not the answer I feel at 12, and our wingers don't know the pecking order in a bad way.

It is hard to see exact causes, but some recruitment has not worked.

Leadership is an issue in the backs. I have no idea how much came from Wade, Daly, Cips etc., but we sure as hell seem to lack it across the pitch. I feel Ashley offers a lot in that department, maybe Young, Shields, and Willis could be great leaders, but I find that there is not much to chose looking at the backs from the outside.

[wasps]

I will blindly defend Dai to the day I die, so I accept I may have a small blind spot for his possible failings.


If I think back to the pre-Cipriani days, we still had a great attack, which was largely attributed to Lee Blackett.
Part of that attack was based on being lethal from turnover ball.
We often did that with Simmo defending out wide. The idea being that if/when we turned the ball over, we'd move it to Simmo as quickly as possible who then had Daly, Wade/Varndell and whichever star player we had at full back in close proximity.

This is where I agree with VV. Our defence to attack transition was exceptional, but was largely built around extreme pace in 4 or 5 players..... Pace is always hard to defend against.




I believe it changed in the Cipriani era. We were lethal off first phase whether it was turnover ball or off a set piece.
That was largely the interplay between Danny and Jimmy, with the backs running lines at pace.
As crazy as it seems, Cipriani often seemed to be at his best when he kept his game simple and just passed to the best positioned runner.
That does Danny a bit of a disservice because he'd already put the hard work in by ensuring everyone knew their roles and knew the runs he wanted.
Then there's the Danny X-factor of taking the ball to the line, no look passes, grubber kicks etc.
With all that, there wasn't a lot of need for us to have a transition game.



Now, post Danny we find ourselves in a quandary.
For ages we wanted to play the Danny Cipriani game with a different fly half. That's as unfair on Lima as it would be any of the top prem fly halves in recent times (Goode, Farrell, Myler etc.)
Even those that play a naturally attacking / distributing game would struggle to play that way (Ford, Hodgson, Smith, 12T)

And unfortunately we now don't have anything like the pace we used to have, so will struggle to transition the way we used to by moving all the speedsters out wide.



For years, we've either based our attacking game on pace, or player xFactor, whether it be Cipriani, Wade, Daly, Beale, WlR etc.

We don't have that so need to build a new approach from scratch.
It appears we're trying to base it on a strong set piece, strong breakdown work, but we need to couple that with either first strike attacking, or a possession based game.
If we keep the ball, we have to defend less, and that's always a benefit

[RogerE]

Many years ago (well about 55 to be more exact), our school Rugby master, who was the then captain of Wales, was adamant that it was hard to defend against fast ball from the ruck/scrum passed to players who were already running pre-determined lines when they received the ball. We spent a lot of time practising and developing these lines so everyone knew the different lines and was able to pass to the players knowing they would be there.

On Saturday Quins were doing this. However from every ruck/scrium Wasps players received the ball standing still.

Just saying....

[wasps]

Many years ago (well about 55 to be more exact), our school Rugby master, who was the then captain of Wales, was adamant that it was hard to defend against fast ball from the ruck/scrum passed to players who were already running pre-determined lines when they received the ball. We spent a lot of time practising and developing these lines so everyone knew the different lines and was able to pass to the players knowing they would be there.

On Saturday Quins were doing this. However from every ruck/scrium Wasps players received the ball standing still.

Just saying....

It's a very strange thing.

It seems to make perfect sense to have runners who are already moving....... Yet it's very rare to see.


When we played laRochelle a couple of seasons ago, they were one of the best running, offloading teams I've seen.

However, they slowed a bit in the 2nd half and I don't recall them being anywhere near as dynamic at our place.



I've often suspected that it's difficult to maintain that type of game plan consistently over 80 minutes.

A lot also depends on your set piece and ball recycling.
If you're getting poor ball from scrum and lineout, then you're in trouble anyway.
If you're getting slow, back foot ball at the breakdown, then you'll do well to break the gain line even with dynamic runners, so it may not be worth wasting the energy and increasing the risk of dropped balls etc.



Ultimately, at the top level, I think it's about combining forward play and backs play.
The forwards need to retain possession and provide fast ball.
The backs need to use that ball efficiently.

Crucially we need a plan to turn slow ball into fast ball. Static forward pods may help reason possession, but they're usually so slow.
Forwards and big ball carriers taking slow ball at pace can often puncture the defensive line and give an opportunity for fast ball - we rarely do this either

[wasps]

It's also worth remembering that during the Cipriani era, we were so fearful of the breakdown that we rarely allowed ourselves to go to ground with the ball.
Instead, we threw hail Mary offloads in the hope that more went to hand than ground.


This approach did result in a number of scintillating broken field scores, but also resulted in lots of turnovers / interceptions

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Many years ago (well about 55 to be more exact), our school Rugby master, who was the then captain of Wales, was adamant that it was hard to defend against fast ball from the ruck/scrum passed to players who were already running pre-determined lines when they received the ball. We spent a lot of time practising and developing these lines so everyone knew the different lines and was able to pass to the players knowing they would be there.

On Saturday Quins were doing this. However from every ruck/scrium Wasps players received the ball standing still.

Just saying....

Kinda my point.

Our players were in their defensive positions and could not attack effectively.

[westwaleswasp]

Personnel are different or off the boil, confidence is low. For me that is the key more even than coaching issues, which are real.

Robson is probably not the best in his position at the club post injury.

Lima continues to get defence from the many who know what a good bloke he is, who feel he is unfairly treated by the fora and press, but I would happily swap him for a Nicky Robinson of a few years ago, let alone a Cipriani.

9,10. Without the half backs firing the rest won't fall into place easily.

Wade was irreplaceable, and the best winger to have played in the league bar none.

I think Gopperth was outstanding but age, injury lay off, and the fact that we have a deep ten have neutered him.

Booj is not the answer I feel at 12, and our wingers don't know the pecking order in a bad way.

It is hard to see exact causes, but some recruitment has not worked.

Leadership is an issue in the backs. I have no idea how much came from Wade, Daly, Cips etc., but we sure as hell seem to lack it across the pitch. I feel Ashley offers a lot in that department, maybe Young, Shields, and Willis could be great leaders, but I find that there is not much to chose looking at the backs from the outside.

Silly question but someone appears to have disagreed with this or me saying happy christmas without saying what they disagree with- I don't like or use the the applaud/smite buttons much (or, indeed, normally find them on on eof my mobile devices ) but if you disagree could you at least say why? 

I have noticed that every time Lima gets mentioned people hit those downvotes, but if you have not got either the guts or the time to disagree and say so, why bother smiting? It seems really rather odd- especially if the rest of the post is stuff you agree with. It seems almost cowardly to not engage in discussion. 

For what its worth - yeah- I stand by what I wrote, Lima's performances are way, way short or what we got out of Robinson who was outstanding with ball in hand. I really wish he had never come to Wasps, with hindsight of course- although I was mortified when we signed him.  He is playing poorly, at his best he has been "ok", not as good on the pitch as Robinson or indeed, the majority of the players who have worn the ten shirt for us.   If you disagree - say so below, please.

 
I thought there was reasonable consensus on Robson being out of form to the point where those behind might not be behind him. Maybe not?

It could be that you feel Booj is the answer- but again, don't smite without replying, actually reply. I would be surprised if someone does think Booj is the answer at 12, but unless you say so, nobody will know.

Ditto leadership- maybe you downvoted it because you think there is leadership across the pitch? But there is no discussion if you don't stand up and say that you think there is. I  would be  very surprised if someone does think we are OK for leadership, but am keen to know who they are if they do. Step forward, please, reveal yourself.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Maybe it was simply because the post was quite negative?

[westwaleswasp]

Less so than most on the board. Most of the points are in agreement with others on this and similar threads- some are mentioned specifically because of that- more mildly stated. In fact almost all of them are on the board said more stridently by more than a few others. The game threads in particular a full of negatives.

I suspect it is Lima. Mentioning his name normally does it, especially unfavourable comparisons with Cipriani, or in this case Robinson. There seems to be a blind spot about him, and has been from day one.
I certainly don't blame him for our troubles, but he is the least effective we have had there for a long while. He has not had one single game for us that has been excellent, for whatever reason.
Jacob is the future, I feel.