A thought om Sarries in Champions Cup

[Old Geezer]

The Champions Cup, as I understand, does not have a salary cap.  That is not to say that teams who perform in it are immune to the Premiership salary cap.  Oh, how Exeter and all those others who have been in the Champions Cup in the years of domestic transgression by Sarries would have loved to have been able to do so with a squad built on ignoring the Premiership cap.  How much better they might have done!

Even today, Sarries won because Nigel Owen did not see a knock on but wrongfully gave a penalty for a Racing offside to Sarries which they kicked and gave them the winning lead.  It was edifying that Daly made a hoof of his goal kick.

At least good old Westwood won the Abu Dhabi golf.

[Davidabricot]

I would like to agree with you but... Which team can really complain? Toulon? Racing? I particularly think to this 2 teams because they use to play with rules. Investigations are still going on some Bernard Laporte affairs involving Toulon and the French federation. Racing had some dirty affairs with Carter (corticosteroids) and the avorted fusion with the Stade Français. The only difference is the country. In the UK there is some penalties. In France there is some manoeuvring (look at the major French team sponsor Altrad who also owns Montpellier).

Jacky Lorenzetti is not clean at all, as well as Boudjelal in Toulon. So, there won't be complains from French teams.

[welsh wasp]

The 9th team have cause to complain about Saracens being able to get into the quarterfinals when they have been breach of the salary cap in this country. Doesn’t matter that the French don’t have a cap

[Davidabricot]

You're right. But I think they don't complain because they don't want that some affairs to be revealed in the medias. There is a salary cap in France, but it's not respected at all. But finally, if the international rugby wants to fair, the top14, the premiership and the pro12 should have the equivalent salary caps. Assuming that the competition is already not fair (only 12 teams in England), 'fake' championship in the pro14, with players linked to the federation rather than a club. But anyway, what dead the sarries is absolutely awful.

Are they really hated in the UK? From France I never seen something like that, among rugby fans, they are hated, I can't describe the level. An in another hand, everybody would like to hire Itoje, Farrell, etc. 

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Hated is probably too strong. But there is widespread dislike because it has been widely known for years that they were cheating.

They have taken the fact many people disliked them and claimed it was just jealousy, that our dislike was a result of their success.

And so now, many people are genuinely pleased they are finally getting part of what they deserve for cheating for so long.

As to wanting their players, I think a lot of rugby fans of any club would rather lose honourably than take on smug cheats however skilled they were.

A little bit of contrition could go an awfully long way.

[mike909]

I'd probably go as far as extreme dislike....and that's partly because of the players' attitude, but their supporters attitude of "we've done so much for England rugby" and "its just an accounting error"and "all the clubs are at it" means any sympathy is long gone.

I also feel for the players at other clubs who's chances of silverware has been reduced through having to play  vs.a rested international standard team too often, giving no or little hope of winning.

As for their players, perhaps one or two youngsters but the senior players can go xxxx.

[Old Geezer]

I agree VV.  As for the other clubs who might complain, I was really thinking about English clubs, not French.

[Tervueren]

I'd go for "despise". Getting a bit fed up with the "mistakes" narrative that is being peddled as it it was not anyone's fault really, whilst they took relegation in an apparent attempt to hide the extent of the cheating.

[Neils]

Remember the three stars they proudly wear on their short are just asterisks for cheating

[Rifleman Harris]

I'd go for "despise". Getting a bit fed up with the "mistakes" narrative that is being peddled as it it was not anyone's fault really, whilst they took relegation in an apparent attempt to hide the extent of the cheating.

George Chuter was on 5Live this morning (along with a text from a Wasps fan which I wondered was someone on here).  He was very good, and when someone mentioned 'mistakes' he just said that someone needs to work out what was mistakes and what was deliberate.  He certainly thinks that there is a lot more to come out.  'Wilful naivety' was how he described the players. It was really interesting.  Its around 2hrs 36 in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000dhlx

[Nigel Med]

The Champions Cup is an interesting one. You have English teams who on the face of it are at a considerable disadvantage. French sides ignore their salary cap and the Pro14 sides are regions not clubs playing in a league with no relegation where their participation in the Champions Cup is all but guaranteed. Will an English team ever be able to compete without cheating? Exeter have been the best English side for several years (now we can justifiable ignore Saracens) but their record in the Champions Cup is woeful (albeit this season is looking better). Will we ever see a repeat of someone like Wasps in a final, wonderfully described by the Sky commentary team as "changing in a shed in Acton" beating a French giant like Toulouse? Or Irish perennial European favourites Leinster? Seems highly unlikely.

This will provoke some heated discussion but should we have English regional teams to play in Europe? It would be tricky to divide the teams and there would be massive hostility from the majority of supporters but I'm really not sure how an English side can hope to compete at that level these days.

Now Exeter will go and win it this season to make this argument look stupid...

[DGP Wasp]

'Wilful naivety'

I like that.

[Davidabricot]

Thank you for your replies. But things are maybe going to change in the champions cup. Many French teams have financial difficulties, and too many are supported by the same administrative region (Toulouse, Castres, Montpellier are in Occitanie, as well as 2nd division teams : Béziers, Montauban, Colomiers, Perpignan, Carcassonne). The situation is quite the same as in the UK, if you don't have a private funder (Pierre Fabre for Castres, Altrad for Montpellier, etc...) you are nothing. In March, maybe the Biarritz Olympique will simply disappear, that's a great wave in the French rugby. Even Toulon had the chance to find a new funder.

But finally, look, Boudjellal hired Botha, Wilkinson and so on: 3 stars in champions cup. Some years after, Boudjellal has less money... and where is Toulon now? Sadly, money is almost everything. So I hope to see the alignement of championships formats in order to see maybe more equity for the european cups.

@Old Geezer
ahah, in France, almost everyone is complaining for something!