Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season  (Read 8390 times)

Davidabricot

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 10:44:21 PM »
I guess this is because of £££££££££ and of the England team, isn't it? It reminds me the troubles with Bastareaud in New-Zealand. He was only protected because he was a marketing product (like Chabal).

InBetweenWasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1010
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2020, 07:05:23 AM »
Speaking of Salary dispensations for a season The Telegraph is running a story today which Brendan Venter has spoken about whereby supposedly teams in the Premiership are loaning out players and restricting their playing time in order to exempt the loanee players from the salary cap.

Bath and Gloucester both explicitly mentioned in the article.  The Bath one does sound a little fishy.  The Gloucester one seems legit (long-term injuries, so have been flagged as loanees to be completely exempt rather than take the smaller figure for injury dispensation).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/01/20/exclusive-half-premiership-rugby-clubs-exploiting-loan-loophole/

wasps

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2020, 07:36:01 AM »

If i consider the main England continent of Saracens, how much worse would the England team be without them?

Mako
George
Itoje
Kruis
Billy
Farrell
Daly


I'm happy with the idea of Marler and Genge as our LHP's.
Undoubtedly, Mako is useful around the park, but Joe is still a better scrummager, as may be genge

Jamie George is the tricky one. I think he's definitely better that Cowan Dickie who I think it's next in line. I still remember our problems at the 2015 RWC

Itoje is our best lock, but I'm more than happy with Launchbury and Lawes

Billy has broken his arm again so we'll be without him anyway... And that's not an uncommon occurrence

Elliott Daly is not the best full back at Saracens let alone England.
I'm not sure who I'd have at 15, but it doesn't bother me for it not to be Daly

Then there's Owen Farrell. I've never been completely sold on him but it's hard to overlook some of his achievements.
By replacing him, we're back to an old conundrum of our style of play, given that George ford is a very different type of fly half.




For me, replacing Jamie George and Owen Farrell result in the biggest challenges for England, and in Farrell's case it's mostly because of a style change.


I really don't see that we need to be bending over backwards to accommodate them in the international squad.
Yes, we'll be a weaker team on paper, but we'll still have a very strong set of forwards and I don't think it will be the disaster that some would have you believe

wasps

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2020, 07:52:36 AM »

I can't read the article, but it's Ventner really suggesting that we were cheating the salary cap when we had Jacob Umaga on loan at Yorkshire and then brought him back for a while to cover for injuries?

From memory, he did feature in prem cup (s), and definitely benched in the league, but I can't remember if he played in the league
(Which alone is an interesting point given that some in the other forum lambasted Dai for not bringing Umaga on in some games - maybe there was a salary cap reason)



But anyway, is Ventner really trying to suggest that loaning a senior academy player out for the season to a championship club is in any way similar to what Saracens have been caught doing?

Tervueren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2462
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2020, 08:00:52 AM »
Venter is just throwing chaff. Luckily it seems he only needs to speak for 2 minutes in order to contradict himself 7 times and look clueless.

Mellie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2020, 08:34:38 AM »
If Venter knows about this then you can bet Sarries have been doing it from when he was DOR 10 years ago.

It seems reasonable to do that for squad players who would have little game time otherwise and who wouldn't be on top wages

Nopace

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2020, 09:20:32 AM »
Didn’t we send him to Auckland for mitre 10?

Just down the road, I think you can get a number 15 from Charing Cross.

Really pathetic whataboutery. Just keep quiet mate.

Rossm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7462
  • Hey, Slow Down.
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2020, 10:11:37 AM »
Here's the Telegraph article by Tom Morgan - Sports News Correspondent

More than half of top-tier English clubs are exploiting a Premiership Rugby loophole which allows them to potentially circumnavigate the salary-cap threshold, The Daily Telegraph understands.
Lord Myners, a City specialist overseeing a review of regulations following the Saracens scandal, will scrutinise a controversial clause allowing teams to write off wages by declaring “season-long” loans.
Critics claim the rule is open to manipulation as players can be recalled by clubs at no extra cost for minor competition matches so long as they are providing cover for an injured player. Players can then feature in the Premiership Rugby Cup or Shield without their salaries counting towards the cap. It appears clubs can face further costs over league appearances, however, initially on a “pro rata” basis.
Bath and Gloucester are known to be among a handful taking advantage of the chance to trim their declared salary-cap wage bill. The rule came to light when Zimbabwean lock, Mike Williams, and Argentine prop, Lucas Noguera, were loaned out separately by Bath to Yorkshire Carnegie in the Championship in September. Williams was immediately sent out on loan after signing for Bath, played for a matter of minutes off the bench in Carnegie’s 83-0 defeat at Nottingham, before returning to the West Country to feature in the Premiership.
Argentine loosehead Noguera was then sent out later the same month, coming off the bench for Carnegie in their 48-0 thrashing at the hands of Cornish Pirates, before returning to Bath the following Monday. Williams has since played five times for Bath, while Noguera has played just once, thanks, it would appear, to the clause set out in schedule one of the pay-cap regulations. Under the rule, loanees can replace long-term injured players so long as they are in broadly like-for-like positions. At Bath, back-row Taulupe Faletau and prop Nathan Catt are on the injury list.

Premiership Rugby salary cap loan loophole | Bath duo's loan appearances
September 20 2019:
Nottingham Rugby 83-0 Yorkshire Carnegie
Championship Cup
Yorkshire Carnegie XV: Tim Bitirim; Andrew Lawson, Lee Smith, James Robins, Tom Varndell; Dan Lancaster, James Elliott; James Flynn, Louis Musetti, Conor Davidson, Ed Bloodworth, Alex Humfrey, Will Hill, James Seabrook, Callum Bustin
Subs: Ben Sugars, Cole Wilson, Will Archer, MIKE WILLIAMS, Taylor Gough, Guy Graham, Joe Green, Joe Carlisle
September 28 2019
Yorkshire Carnegie 0-48 Cornish Pirates
Yorkshire Carnegie XV:  Tim Bitirim, Ross Whitmore, Joe Carlisle, Dan Lancaster, Tom Varndell; Joe Ford, Joe Green; James Flynne, Ben Sowery, Conor Davidson., Jake Brady, Alex Humfrey, Trystan Lloyd, Henri Lavin, Guy Graham
Subs: Louis Musseti, LUCAS NOGUERA, Gareth Smith, Taylor Gough, James Seabrook, Will Findlay, James Robins, Lee Smith
*Both Williams and Noguera, on loan from Bath Rugby, came off the bench briefly for loan club Yorkshire Carnegie

In some cases, up to three players can also be declared as “loaned out” even if they remain at the club. Such arrangements at Gloucester drew criticism by Brendan Venter, the former director of rugby at disgraced Saracens, after he signalled he found it “really hard” to believe the £7million limit had not been breached “here and there” by other clubs.
When pressed for his thoughts on BBC podcast Rugby Union Weekly, Venter said centre Henry Trinder, winger Charlie Sharples and full-back Tom Hudson had all been declared as season-long loan players to ensure the club stayed within the cap.
“You just look at what happened at Gloucester,” said Venter. “Where these three young players, Trinder, Sharples and Hudson, who went on loan before the season starts for the whole year, to get them outside of the cap. So, how’s that possible? Somebody must have got the budgets unbelievably wrong. No one told the players and you go, ‘Is this legal or is this moral? Can you actually do that?’ A lot of these things, I think, were happening with injuries.”
Gloucester declined to comment on Venter’s claims, but are understood to be confident they operated fully transparently and within the laws. Trinder had suffered a torn Achilles tendon, while Sharples was recovering from surgery at the start of this season.
Bath also declined to comment on Monday night, but had previously claimed the loan deals were part of a “mutual long-standing relationship with Carnegie”.
A well-placed source defended the loan arrangement, saying several other clubs were also utilising the clause, and said the law was crucial to allow clubs without the riches of teams such as Saracens to ensure they have access to talent.
However, Venter suggested the rule was an example that Saracens were not the only team using the system to their advantage. “People do funny things when they are in trouble and in Saracens’ case, they are trying now to be whiter than white and say, ‘Look, we told them this is what we did’,” he added. “We lost and we accept that.”
There is no suggestion that the loophole said to be utilised by more than half the clubs in the English top flight is comparable to pay-cap breaches employed by Saracens, who have now accepted relegation after an investigation into business arrangements between outgoing chairman Nigel Wray and leading players, including Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and the Vunipola brothers.
The Premiership and European champions accepted the punishment as they “unreservedly apologised” following the most damaging saga in English club rugby history.
Rival Premiership clubs demanded Saracens were punished for failing to reduce their wage bill this season, having already been hit by a 35-point penalty and a £5.4million fine for exceeding the cap in the past three, trophy-laden seasons.
The “loan” rule, meanwhile, is certain to be scrutinised, a source said, when Lord Myners of Truro, who has a track record for calling out poor financial regulation, launches his independent review. The investigation will significantly strengthen Premiership Rugby’s wider powers in time for the next campaign. According to the domestic league, all aspects of the salary-cap regulations will be strength-tested.
In relation to its current loans rule, a Premiership Rugby spokesman told The Daily Telegraph: “The provision for Premiership Rugby clubs to loan players is covered in the Salary Cap Regulations which are published on our website. Each club is allowed to nominate three players who can be loaned for the season and their salaries are then excluded from the salary cap. Those players can, however, play in the Premiership Rugby Cup or Shield without their salaries counting towards the cap.”
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

DGP Wasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2447
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2020, 11:10:24 AM »
Regulations seem fair enough to me. Bath sound like they might be exploiting it if they're loaning players to Leeds for a short, token appearance from the bench before recalling them, thereby allowing their salary to be counted pro-rata on games played rather than in full as soon as they play any part in any game (that's my understanding anyway).  However, they were recalled as injury cover and only played 6 games between them.  Maybe it needs looking at to close off that particular loophole, but these are not top earners, and a completely different ball park to the systematic cheating at Sarries.

Venter would do well to keep his gob shut.  (Unlikely I know!)

Gaz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2020, 11:11:21 AM »
To be fair, he might have a point if the loophole is being used to get within the cap.

Doesn't excuse Saracens though ...

NellyWellyWaspy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4041
  • Getting older a couple of minutes every day
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2020, 11:49:18 AM »
I could see how a regulation like that could easily be abused. The loanback out to be with approval by the PRL only type of thing. Medical statements would be needed that the replaced/injured player is going to be out for a regulation period.

InBetweenWasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1010
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2020, 11:52:41 AM »
Didn’t we send him to Auckland for mitre 10?

Just down the road, I think you can get a number 15 from Charing Cross.

Really pathetic whataboutery. Just keep quiet mate.

I don’t think there’s any suggestion that we’re one of the Clubs.  We’ve only had academy type players gone on loans and they appear to be legitimate (about getting game time/experience).

For Bath, they’ve had Attwood to France, Williams to Leeds and recently sent Roberts (albeit full-time, I think?) to the Sharks.  They’re 3 Senior players who would have been pretty well paid - Certainly Attwood and Roberts were rumoured to be well-paid.

Bath were also rumoured to have been the ‘other’ team to have been caught cheating the cap back in 2015.  Although weren’t they one of the teams who issued a denial? (Thought it was just Tigers and Sarries who didn’t, but could be wrong).

MarleyWasp

  • Guest
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2020, 12:47:45 PM »
As much as I think Venter is slinging mud in hope it sticks somewhere, I gather his comments on Gloucester are not exactly wide of the mark. A Gloucester contact tells me that the players involved weren't even aware they've been loaned out at first and they've been making excuses not to negotiate a new deal with Tom Marshall as a result.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 12:51:01 PM by MarleyWasp »

InBetweenWasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1010
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2020, 01:22:45 PM »
They’ve had a lot of new signings in the past few seasons.  Mind you, so have Sale.

Listen to the Venter interview on the BBC 5 Live Podcast.  Very little substance to it - insisted it was differences of calculations for Maro’s Image Rights and then also differences of opinion on co-investment. 

He also poo-pooed the mooted £2m overspend before struggling to come up with a number when asked “So if it wasn’t £2m and you have the inside track on that, then what was it...” he started off saying he didn’t know, then eventually replied it was £500k they had to reduce by which wouldn’t make much sense given the level of fines and points deduction.

Apparently Saracens had paid £3m in legal fees independently scrutinising their position prior to the investigation.  By all accounts, that’s a lie or they might wish to get their money back.

He said it was grossly unfair that they were only given the mandate to get under the cap this season in November and told to do so by January - But overlooked the fact that they shouldn’t have been over it in the first place.

Lastly, he was asked whether he had ever had any discussions about how to circumnavigate the cap when he was in charge.  A slight pause while he considered a response then replied that he hadn’t, as back in 2009 the cap wasn’t an issue/in place - Before being corrected that there has been a cap in place since 1999.  Doh!

Virtually entirely an opinion piece from him, with little-to-no validatable fact in his answers.

DGP Wasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2447
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Potential Salary Dispensation For A Season
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2020, 01:57:04 PM »
He said it was grossly unfair that they were only given the mandate to get under the cap this season in November and told to do so by January - But overlooked the fact that they shouldn’t have been over it in the first place.

Errr... I seem to recall they were given a mandate to get under the cap back in 2015.  Not so much a mandate as a reminder.  The mandate was given to all clubs in 1999!