Taking the knee v Saints

[Heathen]

Club Statement: Black Lives Matter

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/club-statement-black-lives-matter/

Very well put.

+1

[Steve from Cov]

Club Statement: Black Lives Matter

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/club-statement-black-lives-matter/

Very well put.

+1

Unequivocal.

[Chilham]

Proud to be a Wasp.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

I think that statement says it all. 

I thought about trashing this thread, but I think it says a lot about the kind of supporter our wonderful club has that despite disagreements it stayed civil.

I also agree wholeheartedly that being against racism is not politics in any way shape or form. And so I'm happy to leave this open for discussion

For now...

[Sting]

Supporting the sentiment behind the notion that black lives should matter equally to white is ok. Supporting, by taking the knee or wearing the organisation branding of BLM is not ok. The demonstrations may have been hijacked but the organisation has not. It was created by three self confessed Marxists. Its manefesto includes defund police, end of capitalism and the following.
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking,"

I cannot show support for the organisation by taking a knee and Wasps support of the BLM organisation is misguided.

[Raggs]

Supporting the sentiment behind the notion that black lives should matter equally to white is ok. Supporting, by taking the knee or wearing the organisation branding of BLM is not ok. The demonstrations may have been hijacked but the organisation has not. It was created by three self confessed Marxists. Its manefesto includes defund police, end of capitalism and the following.
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking,"

I cannot show support for the organisation by taking a knee and Wasps support of the BLM organisation is misguided.

I don't believe they're showing support for any organisation. Just the sentiment that black lives matter. As they stated themselves:

"This is not about politics or hijacked agendas. We would all love to live in a world where all lives matter, but the simple reality is that not all lives have mattered. As we approach the restart of rugby, we will be united in our backing of Black Lives Matter.

Racism of any kind is unacceptable."

[westwaleswasp]

Problem is Black Lives Matter (proper noun, i.e. the organisation which has called for defunding the police, and iirc a reference to Kier Stamer as a 'cop in a suit'),  and "Black lives matter" (a statement) sound very similar and have become conflated.

I very much agree with the latter, but not the prounouncements of members of the former.

I imagine when players take the knee there may be  players who think they are supporting both, the latter, or the former. I suspect the majority see it as the latter, a statement against prejudice. The club statement confirms this.

I think everyone supports removal of prejudice. I doubt if they agree on how, where it exactly what it is, but as a general sentiment they do.
 I would be surprised if too many here support the former to a greater extent, or even to any extent.

[Heathen]

I have a white South African friend. Whilst what happened in SA under white rule cannot be condoned in any shape or form, he says that a significant amount of retribution is happening now. He told me that a white doctor was called out on an emergency. On arrival, he was met by 8 native South Africans who butchered him with machetes.

And that, sadly, is the reality of our planet in the 21st century.

[Raggs]

I have a white South African friend. Whilst what happened in SA under white rule cannot be condoned in any shape or form, he says that a significant amount of retribution is happening now. He told me that a white doctor was called out on an emergency. On arrival, he was met by 8 native South Africans who butchered him with machetes.

And that, sadly, is the reality of our planet in the 21st century.

I'm not sure about the relevance to Wasps players taking a knee, to show that they are against racism.

[13thWarrior]

Sorry, All Lives Matter, irrespective of colour, race or religion. A human being is a human being. End of argument.

Save the Tiger doesn't mean screw the Lion. Save the Rhino doesn't mean Slaughter the Buffalo.

Black lives matter doesn't mean Only black lives matter.

The issue is that black lives, in the USA especially, but also in the UK, don't seem to matter as much as others.

Indeed. It seems "Black lives matter" is sometimes interpreted as "White lives don't matter" which is curious as I don't think that's ever been a message of the movement.

As other's have pointed out, taking the knee and supporting "Black lives matter" is not an endorsement of the political group Black Lives Matter. Yes they use the same phrase but one is a grassroots movement the other a political organisation. There is overlap but the latter does not envelope the former.

Glad the club is showing a coherent message.

[Wombles]

Supporting the sentiment behind the notion that black lives should matter equally to white is ok. Supporting, by taking the knee or wearing the organisation branding of BLM is not ok. The demonstrations may have been hijacked but the organisation has not. It was created by three self confessed Marxists. Its manefesto includes defund police, end of capitalism and the following.
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking,"

I cannot show support for the organisation by taking a knee and Wasps support of the BLM organisation is misguided.

I am sorry if i have interpreted this incorrectly but you are against black lives matter due to them wanting a society where the community is involved in caring for each other and you also believe that homosexuals should be ostracised and treated as abnormal! Am i also to assume that you are still reeling from the suffragette movement? Perhaps you are also against social mobility and believe that privileged jobs should go to the privileged elite not those from working class backgrounds? Perhaps we should still hide our adults and children with mental and physical disabilities away in asylums in grand estates so the upper classes can picnic on the lawns and stare through the windows at them as they lay manacled to beds as a form of entertainment!? Hazah and what fun!

I assume that you know the following to inform your outrage at the western prescribed nuclear family stance;

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-BLM-committed-to-disrupting-the-Western-prescribed-nuclear-family-structure

How about your ‘defund the police’. Your statement on its own makes it sound dark, negative...lets bring down law and order!...but place it in context (there are wonderful academic pieces to find online, but this article offers a great summary):

 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/02/britain-defund-the-police-black-lives-matter

Not so sinister now! And that is the problem with detractors from the BLM movement (and other such movements). They look to depower, disrupt and dissipate so to ensure privilege for those they deem worthy whilst trying to keep other souls condemned. They also twist the narrative on history to strengthen their argument. Watch ‘last week tonight with John Oliver’ on US history from his episode 3rd August 2020 and consider what history taught badly can do.

I am fully in support of Black lives matter and the clubs stance, and am truly glad we have a club that espouses equality for all.
 

[westwaleswasp]

I think that you are going to steer the conversation a long way from rugby, racism and into politics with this post Wombles. Which is fine but the thread will probably degenerate.

It is clear BLM (the organisation) are a hard left anti-capitalist organisation and as such some here will have time for them and some won't. Some may think removal of funds away from the police is sensible,  whilst those campaigning for greater funding for the police will think it nonsense, but the club have said they are not supporting the organisation but making a simple anti racism statement which almost all here will applaud, even if some people above clearly have misgivings about potential association with the political movement.
The club have been clear it is an anti prejudice act, not a supportive gesture for BLM the group, and I support that.

Discussing any anti capitalist group and racism normally ends up with someone on the hard left/far left crawling out from under their rock with antisemitic conspiracy theories referring to mainstream media (you know the ones) and the whole thing descends into finger pointing of who is the most prejudiced or brainwashed by MSM; no matter how many sociology professors from Greenwich you start with, it always ends up in the same place- you only have to look at the current infighting in Labour to see where it ends up- or do a search for BLM and Israel-   so I won't go there besides to say that, yeah, anti-capitalist groups are still all pretty sinister to me, which is not to say I am blind to the system's faults.

I will leave the thread before it gets too political, and once again say the club are making a simple anti prejudice statement we can all (almost, if not all perhaps?) applaud.

[DGP Wasp]

And that is the problem with detractors from the BLM movement (and other such movements). They look to depower, disrupt and dissipate so to ensure privilege for those they deem worthy whilst trying to keep other souls condemned. They also twist the narrative on history to strengthen their argument.

That is a very broad, inaccurate and unfair assessment of those who call the BLM movement into question.  Generalisations like this on either side of any debate only seek to demonise those with an opposing view, and do nothing to encourage reasonable debate.  And you accuse others of twisting the narrative!

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Please don't make me close this thread.

Our club is making an honourable stand against racism.  Despite the flak they have received on Social media they are sticking to their guns and I for one am glad of it.

Whatever your thoughts on the politics behind the BLM organisation, I think now we have to drop it.

[Chilham]

I think that you are going to steer the conversation a long way from rugby, racism and into politics with this post Wombles. Which is fine but the thread will probably degenerate.

It is clear BLM (the organisation) are a hard left anti-capitalist organisation and as such some here will have time for them and some won't. Some may think removal of funds away from the police is sensible,  whilst those campaigning for greater funding for the police will think it nonsense, but the club have said they are not supporting the organisation but making a simple anti racism statement which almost all here will applaud, even if some people above clearly have misgivings about potential association with the political movement.
The club have been clear it is an anti prejudice act, not a supportive gesture for BLM the group, and I support that.

Discussing any anti capitalist group and racism normally ends up with someone on the hard left/far left crawling out from under their rock with antisemitic conspiracy theories referring to mainstream media (you know the ones) and the whole thing descends into finger pointing of who is the most prejudiced or brainwashed by MSM; no matter how many sociology professors from Greenwich you start with, it always ends up in the same place- you only have to look at the current infighting in Labour to see where it ends up- or do a search for BLM and Israel-   so I won't go there besides to say that, yeah, anti-capitalist groups are still all pretty sinister to me, which is not to say I am blind to the system's faults.

I will leave the thread before it gets too political, and once again say the club are making a simple anti prejudice statement we can all (almost, if not all perhaps?) applaud.

Good grief.