ex

[Chunky24]

I wonder if the Exeter game plan has taken a bit of a knock by the new ruck interpretations / enforcement. They have always favoured d(r)iving over rucks to either win the ball or a penalty and seem to condition players to do that. A while ago Rob said something to the effect of the balance of winning the ball in a jackle was outweighed by the risk of penalties. I wonder if they now need to increase their jackle ability.

The risk of the jackle seemed to be reinforced by the ruck enforcement changes a few years ago after the Italy uncontested game. Wasps seemed to suffer then. This time the changes seem to swing the balance back towards the jackle.

(Sorry couldn't resist the dive reference, certainly my perception was they were often off feet as a shoulder landed on one of our players. At least that now gets pinged occasionally.)

Still doing it a lot yesterday. Have noticed that one of the specialist coaches is listed as a T Daly.

Tess Daly, "keeeeeep diving!" ?

[wycombewasp]

no, they got it the wrong way round its Daly Thompson the Olympic decathlon champ, hes teaching them putting the the FH into the ruck, the long jump into the ruck, throwing the opponent out of the ruck, the high jump into the ruck and best of all vaulting onto the ruck from about 14 feet, they just need to find some Polish rugby players.

[Nigel Med]

Exeter are not alone in securing ball at the breakdown by going off heir feet, they're just better coached at doing it. The first player or two arriving at the breakdown will go straight off their feet and then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

Then you've got those "clearing out" once opposition players have arrived. Clearing out is illegal, it breaks several laws; Law 15.5 "An arriving player must be on their feet". Law 15.7 "A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body." Flying off your feet at an opposition player fails to meet both of these laws so should be penalised quite apart from Law 9.11. "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others".

One of the basic principals of the game is that it is played by players on their feet, once you're off your feet you're out of the game. I appreciate that at lower levels of amateur rugby it's not going to happen but are you telling me that supremely fit professionals are unable to stay on their feet? If they were penalised every time they'd soon stop. The big problem for referees is that you don't penalise every offence only those that have a material effect; if a plater is tackled and two of his team mates dive off their feet but there are no opposition players challenging to the ball they've gained no advantage, no material effect, play on. If Jack Willis is quick to the ball and in his trade mark "Jackling" position it should be a penalty. Ping players every time for going straight off their feet and they'll stop doing it and breakdowns will become a far clearer, fair challenge for the ball which is that they should be. Far safer and easier to referee into the bargain. It will mean a further shift in playing styles and coaching and won't suit every team but it would make for a very exciting, fast flowing game. Speed, strength and technique gets rewarded whether you're in attack or defence. That's what rugby should be all about, at the moment it's still "How can we bend the laws as much as possible to get an advantage"

[RogerE]

Nigel - excellent post

[mike909]

It could be due to covid shenanigans. Disruption in matches and training. Plus questionable opinions of members of squad, not sure if that's a universal opinion...

Questionable opinions?

Twitwr or Fakebook comments by a couple of chiefs player about COVID conspiracy etc

Very silly stuff and possibly showing that rugby players are often not that bright.....

[13thWarrior]

Exeter are not alone in securing ball at the breakdown by going off heir feet, they're just better coached at doing it. The first player or two arriving at the breakdown will go straight off their feet and then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

Then you've got those "clearing out" once opposition players have arrived. Clearing out is illegal, it breaks several laws; Law 15.5 "An arriving player must be on their feet". Law 15.7 "A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body." Flying off your feet at an opposition player fails to meet both of these laws so should be penalised quite apart from Law 9.11. "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others".

One of the basic principals of the game is that it is played by players on their feet, once you're off your feet you're out of the game. I appreciate that at lower levels of amateur rugby it's not going to happen but are you telling me that supremely fit professionals are unable to stay on their feet? If they were penalised every time they'd soon stop. The big problem for referees is that you don't penalise every offence only those that have a material effect; if a plater is tackled and two of his team mates dive off their feet but there are no opposition players challenging to the ball they've gained no advantage, no material effect, play on. If Jack Willis is quick to the ball and in his trade mark "Jackling" position it should be a penalty. Ping players every time for going straight off their feet and they'll stop doing it and breakdowns will become a far clearer, fair challenge for the ball which is that they should be. Far safer and easier to referee into the bargain. It will mean a further shift in playing styles and coaching and won't suit every team but it would make for a very exciting, fast flowing game. Speed, strength and technique gets rewarded whether you're in attack or defence. That's what rugby should be all about, at the moment it's still "How can we bend the laws as much as possible to get an advantage"

While I agree with the rest of what you say, this will always be true in any sport no matter what the rules are.

[Mellie]

Then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

I'm confused how a player attempting to jackal that places hands on the ground beyond the ball to scoop it up is always penalised for not being on their feet yet many players in rucks on all fours not bound to anyone with the ball behind them and obstructing the opposition from legally rucking are not.

[mike909]

Exeter are not alone in securing ball at the breakdown by going off heir feet, they're just better coached at doing it. The first player or two arriving at the breakdown will go straight off their feet and then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

Then you've got those "clearing out" once opposition players have arrived. Clearing out is illegal, it breaks several laws; Law 15.5 "An arriving player must be on their feet". Law 15.7 "A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body." Flying off your feet at an opposition player fails to meet both of these laws so should be penalised quite apart from Law 9.11. "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others".

One of the basic principals of the game is that it is played by players on their feet, once you're off your feet you're out of the game. I appreciate that at lower levels of amateur rugby it's not going to happen but are you telling me that supremely fit professionals are unable to stay on their feet? If they were penalised every time they'd soon stop. The big problem for referees is that you don't penalise every offence only those that have a material effect; if a plater is tackled and two of his team mates dive off their feet but there are no opposition players challenging to the ball they've gained no advantage, no material effect, play on. If Jack Willis is quick to the ball and in his trade mark "Jackling" position it should be a penalty. Ping players every time for going straight off their feet and they'll stop doing it and breakdowns will become a far clearer, fair challenge for the ball which is that they should be. Far safer and easier to referee into the bargain. It will mean a further shift in playing styles and coaching and won't suit every team but it would make for a very exciting, fast flowing game. Speed, strength and technique gets rewarded whether you're in attack or defence. That's what rugby should be all about, at the moment it's still "How can we bend the laws as much as possible to get an advantage"

Good post and you can see rugby being played nearer to the Laws as written and as demonstrated on World Rugby if you've watched SH rugby at all levels. It makes for the fast flowing game you very much often see at Mitre 10 Cup games and much of SR.

Not only safer but a faster and more skilful game - as you say.

I've been posting similar on Guardian comments for nearly 2 years - many people seem to think it's "namby"........

[Vespula Vulgaris]

It could be due to covid shenanigans. Disruption in matches and training. Plus questionable opinions of members of squad, not sure if that's a universal opinion...

Questionable opinions?

Twitwr or Fakebook comments by a couple of chiefs player about COVID conspiracy etc

Very silly stuff and possibly showing that rugby players are often not that bright.....

Baxter strongly implied he agreed.

[mike909]

And I agree with Baxter!

[Skippy]

My dog is called Baxter. I’ll let him know for you.

[Nigel Med]

Then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

I'm confused how a player attempting to jackal that places hands on the ground beyond the ball to scoop it up is always penalised for not being on their feet yet many players in rucks on all fours not bound to anyone with the ball behind them and obstructing the opposition from legally rucking are not.

It is rather confusing. By the letter of the law if a jackaling player touches the ground his is off his feet but that's clearly unfair if he's supporting his weight with his feet and it genuinely attempting to pick the ball up which he's perfectly entitled to do if he's the first person on his feet to the breakdown. What referees are supposed to look for is the position of the players hips in relation to his feet. If they're directly above his feet he is definitely supporting his own weight, if his hips are beyond his feet he must be supporting some of his weight with his arms therefore he cannot legally pick the ball up. Very difficult to make that judgement in a split second and as I think it was Austin Healy mentioned on Friday night, it doesn't take into account the ridiculous athletic ability of players like Jack Willis who can get into the most incredible positions whilst still supporting his own weight.

It would of course make it far easier for referees to make that judgement if there were no defending players off their feet getting in the way. I was livid at the penalty awarded to Chiefs in the Prem final just before half time. Scores were level at the time, Joe got to a breakdown and was unquestionable on his feet. There were several Chiefs players present, not one on their feet but Joe got pinged. I've watched it several times and I'm baffled, it was clearly not a ruck. Joe looked very unimpressed to put it mildly.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

It could be due to covid shenanigans. Disruption in matches and training. Plus questionable opinions of members of squad, not sure if that's a universal opinion...

Questionable opinions?

Twitwr or Fakebook comments by a couple of chiefs player about COVID conspiracy etc

Very silly stuff and possibly showing that rugby players are often not that bright.....

Baxter strongly implied he agreed.

For clarification Baxter strongly implied he agreed with the players talking about Covid being a big conspiracy, not that some players aren't too bright...

[RogerE]

Then to make it look vaguely legal adopt a sort of press-up position supporting their weight with their arms, they are still clearly off their feet but it's supposed to fool referees into making it look like they attempted to stay upright.

I'm confused how a player attempting to jackal that places hands on the ground beyond the ball to scoop it up is always penalised for not being on their feet yet many players in rucks on all fours not bound to anyone with the ball behind them and obstructing the opposition from legally rucking are not.

It is rather confusing. By the letter of the law if a jackaling player touches the ground his is off his feet but that's clearly unfair if he's supporting his weight with his feet and it genuinely attempting to pick the ball up which he's perfectly entitled to do if he's the first person on his feet to the breakdown. What referees are supposed to look for is the position of the players hips in relation to his feet. If they're directly above his feet he is definitely supporting his own weight, if his hips are beyond his feet he must be supporting some of his weight with his arms therefore he cannot legally pick the ball up. Very difficult to make that judgement in a split second and as I think it was Austin Healy mentioned on Friday night, it doesn't take into account the ridthe rear of the feeticulous athletic ability of players like Jack Willis who can get into the most incredible positions whilst still supporting his own weight.

In gymnastics being able to support your own weight in "standing semi-split position, while beding forward drom the waist" positions is fairly basic. Almost any male gymnast of county level and above can do this easily with their hips behind feet . Not quite so easy, but often seen even with older recreational gymnasts is the same, but with hips in front of the feet.

It isn't too difficult to acheive, but takers practice to "train" the muscles.

If Rugby is saying you can only support your weight with hips above feet, then it shows how insular those in charge are - they need to look at other sports.

[mike909]

For clarification Baxter strongly implied he agreed with the players talking about Covid being a big conspiracy, not that some players aren't too bright...

Oh, I don't know...