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Author Topic: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.  (Read 2432 times)

Wombles

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England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« on: March 21, 2021, 07:38:00 AM »
Having had time to assess our performance against Ireland, and to take the tournament as a whole, it seems clear to me that it is not a fault with the players but the attitude and mentality of the coaches, specifically Eddie Jones.

Over 2020 our game plan narrowed, it started to become about slow pace, one out rugby with up n unders time after time after time. We neither respected position or possession. Rather than build upon our attack (which with the player at our disposal and coaching of Simon Amor) Jones decided to ‘hide it until the 2023 world cup’!

Then came the 2021 six nations, folllowing a very uninspired Autumn nations cup. Jones club of personal preference began. Players became undroppable, favouritism replaced form. How else can you explain picking players such as Vunipola, Daly, Farrell when the likes of Dombrant, the Simmonds brothers, Malins were bang in form (at least we got the latter towards the end). But then you look at Ben Young’s, a player who’s form is consistent in its inconsistency. And blows hot and cold More times than my Dyson. Constantly leaving Robson on the bench and not playing Randall, although injury curtailed that chance. There is also an argument why Marcus Smith should be included, he has been performing very well in an inspired Harlequins team this season, but Jones preferred his tried and truste.......no hang on....tried and personally favoured. But remember these selections are from the man who said “selection is not important” so should we be surprised? We have players literally banging down the door who deserved selection, yet this last 18 months has demonstrated we have a head coach without the ability to do so.

What is infuriating is that this England selection can perform, France proved this point. The above choices would have simply strengthened an already capable team, whilst also keeeping performance standards high, whilst making those out of form realise there is no irreplaceable man. The red rose shirts are borrowed only, and should be worn with a sense of duty and privilege to give your all for the shirt and to respect the history of those that have worn it.
And maybe that leads me to my key thought. History and culture, playing for England is and always will be a privilege, it is a demonstration you are at the top of your game, you are out there to represent those that have been before and those that will follow. If you get the gravitas of this, you get England’s culture. You feel the rose beating in you, you look to the stands at Twickenham, the car park around HQ on match days, the road from the train station, the hoards in Twickers and around the country to their homes, their pubs, their rugby clubs, white shirts adorned, hopes high and excitement palpable. You understand the excitement as the build up in test week starts, not only at Pennyhill Park, but all of us at home, at work, pouring over reports and media just to get a tiny insight into our chances. You recognise that while you are in the team meeting, countless others are having similar excitable conversations with their friends and family over a cup of tea or a glass of ale. And when you see the magnificent stands of Twickenham as you approach, the golden lions over the gates, you hear he cheers of those that support and give up so much of their time and themselves to the game and the country they love as you walk to the changing rooms and see the names of those before you at your seat. And as you run out into the stadium to a cacophony of passionate support and hope, and when you belt out your anthem, if you do not feel that privilege then, then you will never play like your life depends on it and those playing standards from all will never be consistently high enough for us to achieve what we all would love to achieve.

Yet all Eddie Jones sees is a building with lots of seats and a changing room he calls ‘the sheds’. No man who sets up a team like he does, provides a style that inhibits rather than releases, that picks favourites over form, and sees Twickenham as bricks and mortar can ever truly understand what it means to us all, and cannot lead us to a successful future.


Sometime when you're feeling important;
Sometime when your ego 's in bloom;
Sometime when you take it for granted,
You're the best qualified in the room:
Sometime when you feel that your going,
Would leave an unfillable hole,
Just follow these simple instructions,
And see how they humble your soul.

Take a bucket and fill it with water,
Put your hand in it up to the wrist,
Pull it out and the hole that's remaining,
Is a measure of how much you'll be missed.
You can splash all you wish when you enter,
You may stir up the water galore,
But stop, and you'll find that in no time,
It looks quite the same as before.

The moral of this quaint example,
Is to do just the best that you can,
Be proud of yourself but remember,
There's no indispensable man

Saxon White Kessinger

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2021, 09:11:59 AM »
Good post and poem. (When I was working I liked to remind people people that the graveyards are full of indispensable people.)

Anyway, to the point of the topic .....

When it was announced that Sarries were being relegated Eddie said that their players could still get picked for England. In a way that was quite laudable, I don't have a problem with coaches being loyal to players, within reason, and it was expected that they would be getting regular game time. The top of the Championship is a good standard, probably not much worse than the bottom of the Premiership, and it was only expected to be a year.

As we know Covid changed all that and it meant that Sarries' players weren't getting any game time, but Jones still insisted on not only picking them but playing them. This isn't hindsight, many warned that they weren't match fit and would struggle at international level, which they duly did and it was quite obvious during the first match.

Of course nobody can tell EJ anything and he stuck to his guns, apparently we couldn't call anyone else up because of Covid bubbles (which turned out to wrong) and he stuck to to his game plan. So we ended up playing a tedious system, badly, with undercooked players in key positions.

After 3 warmup games the Sarries players were now match fit and we saw the potential of the squad and there's no doubt that they are good, not world beaters but not bad. And then yesterday they returned to the tedious system played badly. I suppose that points to the French forcing us to play rugby rather than it being an EJ game plan.

I can't decide which makes me angriest:
 
  • Treating the 6N as warm up games for his probable World Cup squad that is 2 years away.
  • The disrespect he's shown to England fans and players and fans of the other nations by not taking the tournament seriously.
  • His pig headedness in sticking with players even when it was obvious they weren't going to be match fit and the insult that  sent to Premiership players who were on top form.
  • The game that he calls rugby being played by our top players.
Watching England brought me in to watching rugby regularly, I wouldn't have done so if that tripe had been on show all those years ago. God knows what he's doing to grass roots rugby and the attraction of new, young, talent and fans.


RBB

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2021, 09:26:04 AM »
EJ is in total denial, this article whereas not particulalrly insightful, this article does expose his pigheadedness and arrogance.

https://punditarena.com/rugby/jeff-simon/eddie-jones-doubts-coaching-methods-ireland-loss/

Eddie Jones: England in transition.
Jones addressed the media after his side’s disappointing result and he was asked if his coaching methods were still working for the team.

“I don’t think that’s the issue,” Jones said in a press conference.

“If I thought that was the issue, I wouldn’t be coaching the team.

“Look we need to assess where we are going. As I’ve said all along, we are going through a transition period in the team.



This comment is so crass, it is laughable. He talks about transition but insists on picking the same bang average performers - Farrell, The Vunipolas, and the rest of the cheats. This was a dead rubber, surely there was an opportunity to do something different, and even perhaps start to effect a transition. So what is the next phase of the transition, lo0k to the EA squad that is hardly playing, and in a lower league, and start picking them. As other have said elsewhere, he will be staying, he is under contract and the RFU are skint. The man they want is firmly anchored in Exeter and won't be going anywhere soon. As it stands, IMO, we are stuck with EJ until after the next World Cup. EJ's opinion of himself is the issue, that will never change.
It was fine when I left it.....

HDAWG

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2021, 09:27:04 AM »

I can't decide which makes me angriest:
 
  • Treating the 6N as warm up games for his probable World Cup squad that is 2 years away.
  • The disrespect he's shown to England fans and players and fans of the other nations by not taking the tournament seriously.
  • His pig headedness in sticking with players even when it was obvious they weren't going to be match fit and the insult that  sent to Premiership players who were on top form.
  • The game that he calls rugby being played by our top players.

I respectfully disagree with those points about EJ not taking it seriously. He absolutely took this seriously because he refused to experiment and select out of form players. EJ only experiments when there's little to no risk.

I wished he didn't take the six nations seriously and did experiment with players like Smith and the Simmons brothers.

Maybe it's just perception, but my interpretation was he didn't drop Saracens players because he wanted to play it safe and win the six nations, I think he was trying to take it seriously.

But I agree, those Saracens players who had no form should've been dropped.

Bloke in North Dorset

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2021, 09:32:46 AM »
Quote
I respectfully disagree with those points about EJ not taking it seriously. He absolutely took this seriously because he refused to experiment and select out of form players. EJ only experiments when there's little to no risk.
Fair point

Shugs

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2021, 10:46:30 AM »
I can't seriously believe Jones thinks we are in a period of transition. For me what I dislike most about the team at the moment is the sense of arrogance that runs through its core. Players moaning, sulking and expecting things to go for them irrespective of effort. The main culprits are Sinckler, Vunipola B, Genge and Daly. Then there is selection. At a guess I'd say at least half the starting 23 from yesterday were not the best players in their position. Jones then tries to find endless ways of playing people out of position. A conservative roll call from just the recent past including Lawes, Curry, Farrell, Lawrence, Joseph, Daly and Watson. We have the biggest player pool out there - just play people where they play. Then there is style. Two phases and then a box kick. Play without the ball. Etc etc. If you actually look back through Jones tenure it's littered with phases of terrible play and punctuated briefly with the odd good game. It's not good enough.

hookender

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2021, 11:15:25 AM »
So sad that I feel I want England to fail, and at least the debacle with the World Cup tickets means at least I haven’t purchased any to see them there.

 In fact if we come out of lockdown and opportunity for a ticket at Twickenham came up, I think I’d turn it down.

mike909

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2021, 11:37:31 AM »
Transition

What do these player have in common?
Quote
15 Elliot Daly, 14 Jonny May, 13 Henry Slade, I2 Owen Farrell (c),10 George Ford 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7, Tom Curry, 5 Maro Itoje, 4 Joe Launchbury, 3 Kyle Sinckler, 2 Jamie George, 1 Mako Vunipola - Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Mark Wilson

They started or were on the bench for the second Test in SA in 2018. That was a team in transition from the Robshaw days towards a better team - but only after unimaginative selections led to 6Ns 2018 and the most losses in a row in a very long time

This is not a team in transition. This is the same team that England have wanted (Manu apart) to select for some time. Add in Watson and Lawes to the SA Tour team and there is our 2021 6N's selection - no surprises.

Too many players not in form/match fit and too many excellent players not near the team and consistency looks like dogmatic - and also a team that seems lacking in ability to think and too much directed by the coach.


wasps

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2021, 11:53:44 AM »

While I accept that Team can be in transition in terms of both personnel and style at different times, I'm getting fed up of it being the term used to replace "we're shit at the moment, but we expect to get better"


I'm a firm believer that there's more than one way to play rugby and that there's more than one way to win games.
You don't have to be a flamboyant, attacking team to win. A strong, solid, pragmatic approach can often be more successful.
The day that everyone plays the same way is the day that it becomes too boring.
However, a coach will always get complaints by playing a more pragmatic approach unless they have a near 100% win record.
Fans (both casual and hardcore), pundits and players all prefer to watch an exciting team play with ball in hand compared to one that attempts to benefit from mistakes made by the opposition.



The Cardinal sin in this tournament was picking players who weren't match fit it even fit at all and therefore has no current form.
Eddie obviously trusts those players to put in big performances regardless of their fitness..... Well, this time he was completely wrong.
That being said, there's a good chance that I'd have had Itoje in my squad, and I would probably have wanted to see what the fitness of Mako was like. I can therefore see why he would have had them in the squad.....
But....
A good coach makes the right calls at the right time, and he missed every opportunity to drop the players who weren't sufficiently fit or weren't playing well.



I don't know that we'd have done any better with different personnel, however, I firmly believe that Eddie should have started to change his matchday squad when it clearly wasn't working after the first game.
For me, that was another sign of stubbornness, rather than making the right decisions at the right time


My concern now is that I don't see how England move forward.
They will certainly be better when all players are playing regularly... But it will never be the open, attacking style that everyone is crying out for..... Eddie therefore needs to start another 100% win streak to get everyone off his back

JF

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2021, 12:47:03 PM »
EJ's philosophy seems to be: if at first you don't succeed, look at your contract and payslip and then do it all over again.

HDAWG

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2021, 01:13:45 PM »
I personally find England boring at the moment, but EJ did get us to a world cup final. He didn't win it, but he did better than a lot of other teams. We beat the all blacks in that tournament and hammered Ireland in the warm up and six nations.

He had a terrible 6 nations in 2018 and recovered. Same may happen here.

It is partially backing out of form players, but he has dropped Daly and George in favour of Malins and LCD. It's a difficult one because either he removes the back bone of the team and has a completely experimental team or risks backing out of form. It's not an easy situation, and think it's not entirely his fault.

wasps

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2021, 02:45:57 PM »
I personally find England boring at the moment, but EJ did get us to a world cup final. He didn't win it, but he did better than a lot of other teams. We beat the all blacks in that tournament and hammered Ireland in the warm up and six nations.

He had a terrible 6 nations in 2018 and recovered. Same may happen here.

It is partially backing out of form players, but he has dropped Daly and George in favour of Malins and LCD. It's a difficult one because either he removes the back bone of the team and has a completely experimental team or risks backing out of form. It's not an easy situation, and think it's not entirely his fault.

Dropping the backbone of the team and rebuilding would genuinely then be "a transition phase"

Carrying on doing what we've down most of the time over the last few years isn't a transition phase

Skippy

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2021, 06:46:47 PM »
The 6N was an opportunity missed to try new players with almost a free pass given the roll call on knackered players who’ve been on the go since August, quasi-furloughed estate agents and the whole lockdown-bubbles scenario. Instead, we wheel out the same team as 2018 and try and brand it as transition. Some one needs to tell the Emperor that he’s strutting around in his birthday suit. It’s the only explanation for the sheer amount of bollocks that we’re seeing.

wasps

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2021, 09:10:30 PM »
I assume there won't be a summer tour of the SH and probably no autumn internationals.

As such, it's unlikely that Eddie will have to prove anything until the next 6 Nations.
At which point, the RFU will feel that it's too choose to the world cup to change

WonkyWasp

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Re: England & Eddie Jones: Post six nations 2021 thoughts.
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2021, 08:10:53 AM »
Apart from wanting the best for Wasp/English team players I have not cheered on England  for several years now. I am English.  Surely surely the RFH must have a Get Out Clause somewhere?  Surely they can get rid of Jones somehow.