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Author Topic: More leavers??  (Read 5819 times)

wasps

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2021, 04:05:16 PM »

If McIntyre is leaving because the coaches have decided that we have sufficient quality at LH and that he hasn't played enough recently to warrant another contract when money and salary cap are tight, then I'll be sad, but I'm ok with it

However, if we're letting him go because another player is on a huge salary and has thrown a strop and won't play, then I'd be livid.

I know that ZuZu was an emergency signing when we had very few alternative options, and quite frankly, he played well for us, but if you're a professional player and expect to keep earning your money, then you should do the training as instructed and perform to the best of your abilities at all times.... Anything short suit6 be considered a breach of contract.


I hope I'm doing him a disservice with this post and that we see him attempting drop goals or trying to skin a winger on the outside next season

Ok well, I'm not so livid

Stang

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2021, 05:07:57 PM »
What do we think the strategy is here?

Cut some costs while revenues recover and give some of the new generation some exposure?

We also seem to have a lot of long term knee injuries. S&C or bad luck? I know it’s an easy band wagon to jump on but worth asking the question!

I think Kieron and Will will be hard to replace. Sad to see Chesty leave. Thought TT, BV, CS & LS could have done more with us - was excited about that bunch, but on we go. All have had moments of brilliance.

wasps

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2021, 06:16:15 PM »
What do we think the strategy is here?

Cut some costs while revenues recover and give some of the new generation some exposure?

We also seem to have a lot of long term knee injuries. S&C or bad luck? I know it’s an easy band wagon to jump on but worth asking the question!

I think Kieron and Will will be hard to replace. Sad to see Chesty leave. Thought TT, BV, CS & LS could have done more with us - was excited about that bunch, but on we go. All have had moments of brilliance.

I tend to think that the strategy has one eye on the salary cap reductions, and another on a mid-to-long term squad.

I suspect that there's been a review of players who have been injured a number of times over the past few seasons, with a view to ensuring that the majority of the squad we have going forwards are regularly available to play.
Couple that with a number of players who have made their own decision to leave and we end up looking like we're decimating the squad.

However, a major factor is the salary cap reduction.
We need to somehow bring in numbers while spending less money.
The only way that can be done is by removing higher paid players (Brookes, ZZ, McIntyre, TT etc) and replacing with cheaper options, often from other leagues.

Moreso than some other sports, I often feel that rugby is more about a team being more than the sum of its parts, rather than individual brilliance.
I.e. you can have the greatest centre on the planet in your team, but he won't be able to beat everyone single handedly.
Whereas you can often have a good team of players who support each other and ultimately overwhelm the opposition.

Obviously having both is best, but for mid/long term planning, I'd rather build a squad of like minded players focusing on team work, intensity and support

Neils

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2021, 06:21:33 PM »
What do we think the strategy is here?

Cut some costs while revenues recover and give some of the new generation some exposure?

We also seem to have a lot of long term knee injuries. S&C or bad luck? I know it’s an easy band wagon to jump on but worth asking the question!

I think Kieron and Will will be hard to replace. Sad to see Chesty leave. Thought TT, BV, CS & LS could have done more with us - was excited about that bunch, but on we go. All have had moments of brilliance.

I tend to think that the strategy has one eye on the salary cap reductions, and another on a mid-to-long term squad.

I suspect that there's been a review of players who have been injured a number of times over the past few seasons, with a view to ensuring that the majority of the squad we have going forwards are regularly available to play.
Couple that with a number of players who have made their own decision to leave and we end up looking like we're decimating the squad.

However, a major factor is the salary cap reduction.
We need to somehow bring in numbers while spending less money.
The only way that can be done is by removing higher paid players (Brookes, ZZ, McIntyre, TT etc) and replacing with cheaper options, often from other leagues.

Moreso than some other sports, I often feel that rugby is more about a team being more than the sum of its parts, rather than individual brilliance.
I.e. you can have the greatest centre on the planet in your team, but he won't be able to beat everyone single handedly.
Whereas you can often have a good team of players who support each other and ultimately overwhelm the opposition.

Obviously having both is best, but for mid/long term planning, I'd rather build a squad of like minded players focusing on team work, intensity and support

Not disagreeing with you but taking your review of injuries - would a certain J Willis not come into the extremely dodgy bracket.
Let me tell you something cucumber

westwaleswasp

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2021, 06:29:15 PM »
Agreed BdeB. I like our recruitment this year. The players you highlight will be missed. But when you break it down I see it as:
McIntyre: Great servant but limited game time of late so Hislop replaces. Unproven but likely to be available more.
Brookes: Back spasms and other injuries becoming frequent. Great in the scrum, not so elsewhere. Scholtz looks like for like but again, has less miles on the clock.
Taylor: Been good last few weeks but often out before. Well stocked here with Cruse, Oghre, Frost and Barbeary.
Rowlands: Pretty much like for like with Stooke but no international interruption likely for Stooke.
You throw in the other bits like Mehson, Crossdale and Millar-Mills plus whoever is to come and I think we're stronger.

To be fair, it is easy to say "like for like" on Brookes and point to his work around the pitch or time away. KB has been excellent at scrum time- does anyone think otherwise? JTA was universally heralded as a great signing, and then spent chunks of time in the seconds, contributing nothing to the first team when doing so. Now he has contributed this year having done that, but there is a huge question over the scrum still. Scholtz could be a great signing, of course, or another JTA who needs time to acclimatise. Truth is we do not know. I have heard some decent things about him here, but our scrum has been excellent with Brookes on the pitch, and that level of quality is hard to find. If Scholtz fails to perform in the scrum we will be weaker. If he performs well we could be ahead. 
If Scholtz turns out to have scrum pen issues, where do we go? Alo/JTA split, I guess.  We have seen this year that with poor maul we have struggled at times. Add in a dodgy TH issue and we would be royally up the creek. Of all the signings, Scholtz is the one I am hoping works out, because the guy he is replacing has helped given us a bit of scrum consistency this year. 

wasps

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2021, 06:33:45 PM »
Neils...
I'll be honest, I'm extremely concerned about Jack.

It's amazing how well he came back after his last injury.
The pessimist in me isn't expecting us (and him) to be so lucky again, but I'm really really hope I'm wrong.

Ultimately, Jack for me is one of those few game winning individuals.
Even if he plays just 5 games per season, he's greatly increasing your chances of winning those 5 games so to some degree there may be different rules applied to him.


But if his performances weren't as good in the future following another major injury then there may need to be some difficult decisions made - ones that I'm glad I wouldn't have to make
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 06:59:49 PM by wasps »

wasps

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2021, 06:37:35 PM »
Westwaleswasp

If Alo can build more match fitness / stamina then we may find we already have a scrummaging replacement for Brookes.

I've been very impressed with Alo since his return, but he needs to scrummage for up to an hour per game to be a suitable option

Neils

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2021, 06:41:06 PM »
Neils...
I'll be honest, I'm extremely concerned about Jack.

It's amazing how well he came back after his last injury.
The pessimist in me isn't expecting us (and him) to be so lucky again, but I'm really really hope I'm wrong.

Ultimately, Jack for me is one of those few game winning individuals.
Even if he plays just 5 games per season, he's greatly increasing your chances of winning those 5 games so to some degree there may be different rules applied to him.


But if his performances weren't as good in the future following another major injury then there may need to be some difficult decisions made - ones that I'm glad I wouldn't have to consider

+1 very secretly.
Let me tell you something cucumber

Stang

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2021, 12:27:03 AM »
Agreed BdeB. I like our recruitment this year. The players you highlight will be missed. But when you break it down I see it as:
McIntyre: Great servant but limited game time of late so Hislop replaces. Unproven but likely to be available more.
Brookes: Back spasms and other injuries becoming frequent. Great in the scrum, not so elsewhere. Scholtz looks like for like but again, has less miles on the clock.
Taylor: Been good last few weeks but often out before. Well stocked here with Cruse, Oghre, Frost and Barbeary.
Rowlands: Pretty much like for like with Stooke but no international interruption likely for Stooke.
You throw in the other bits like Mehson, Crossdale and Millar-Mills plus whoever is to come and I think we're stronger.

To be fair, it is easy to say "like for like" on Brookes and point to his work around the pitch or time away. KB has been excellent at scrum time- does anyone think otherwise? JTA was universally heralded as a great signing, and then spent chunks of time in the seconds, contributing nothing to the first team when doing so. Now he has contributed this year having done that, but there is a huge question over the scrum still. Scholtz could be a great signing, of course, or another JTA who needs time to acclimatise. Truth is we do not know. I have heard some decent things about him here, but our scrum has been excellent with Brookes on the pitch, and that level of quality is hard to find. If Scholtz fails to perform in the scrum we will be weaker. If he performs well we could be ahead. 
If Scholtz turns out to have scrum pen issues, where do we go? Alo/JTA split, I guess.  We have seen this year that with poor maul we have struggled at times. Add in a dodgy TH issue and we would be royally up the creek. Of all the signings, Scholtz is the one I am hoping works out, because the guy he is replacing has helped given us a bit of scrum consistency this year.

Fully agree. No disrespect to Scholtz and I hope it works out too, but Kieran is a different beast. Just looks to be a phenomenal physical specimen and I reckon even on a bad day, he would be a nightmare to scrummage against. He hit good form with us and it wasn’t long ago that we had scrum issues season after season.

Shugs

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2021, 12:31:00 AM »
Take your point WWW. Reading between the lines with Blackett saying Kieron was leaving "a year early" I suspect we didn't want him to go but with an offer from Toulon on the table we probably had little choice. So be it. I'll monitor the amount of games they get out of him. Scholtz is a rock solid scrummager, maybe not as good as Brookes but he'll probably play more.

westwaleswasp

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2021, 12:43:54 AM »
Westwaleswasp

If Alo can build more match fitness / stamina then we may find we already have a scrummaging replacement for Brookes.

I've been very impressed with Alo since his return, but he needs to scrummage for up to an hour per game to be a suitable option

Yes, Alo looks to be a big unit and hopefully can offer 50 -60 mins. I will sleep easier if he comes on.

westwaleswasp

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Re: More leavers??
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2021, 12:46:04 AM »
Take your point WWW. Reading between the lines with Blackett saying Kieron was leaving "a year early" I suspect we didn't want him to go but with an offer from Toulon on the table we probably had little choice. So be it. I'll monitor the amount of games they get out of him. Scholtz is a rock solid scrummager, maybe not as good as Brookes but he'll probably play more.

If he is a rock solid scrummager we will be well placed, but it is vital that he can show it in a Wasps shirt.