Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Lions  (Read 1484 times)

backdoc

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Lions
« on: July 03, 2021, 05:37:50 PM »
OK so far.

Is Jonny Hill really up to this standard?

Neils

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Re: Lions
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2021, 05:39:40 PM »
OK so far.

Is Jonny Hill really up to this standard?

Nope.

Not yet.
Let me tell you something cucumber

Chunky24

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Re: Lions
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2021, 06:14:25 PM »
Watson is just a ball of muscle and energy, where do you tackle him or clear him out!

backdoc

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Re: Lions
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2021, 06:29:23 PM »
Watson was at my old school [Lewis Moody, Tom Croft].  Ian 'Dosser' Smith was responsible.

Chunky24

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Re: Lions
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2021, 06:32:08 PM »
Watson was at my old school [Lewis Moody, Tom Croft].  Ian 'Dosser' Smith was responsible.

Saw the two of them talking on one of the "dedicate your shirt" clips on Lions Twitter, seemed like the sort of coach / bloke you would run through walls for even after listening to him for 30 seconds or so!

Rossm

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Re: Lions
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2021, 07:32:06 PM »
Thirty Lions and counting: The Leicester Tigers legend who launched the career of Hamish Watson and many more 

Ian Smith, the mentor of Hamish Watson at Oakham School, has worked with 30 Lions over a storied coaching career

There was this article in the Telegraph a couple of days ago:

Each member of Warren Gatland’s squad, and indeed any player to have ever been picked for the British and Irish Lions, will have experienced several sliding-doors moments on their path to selection.

Ian Smith orchestrated an early, yet significant turning point in Hamish Watson’s career. Just over a decade ago, he drove the promising Oakham School openside flanker 30 miles up the A606 to Nottingham for an assessment day with Scottish Exiles. Chris Gray, lock for Scotland’s Grand Slam-winning side of 1990, oversaw matters.

“I had been taking him to Leicestershire trials before that,” Smith remembers. “And what sticks in my mind now is that he could have been playing for the Lions as an England international. But that wasn’t to be.”

Watson’s father had asked Smith whether he knew anyone involved in the Scotland age-group set-up. Silly question, really. If he kept books of his rugby contacts, Smith could fill an entire library.

The former Leicester Tigers back-rower, a veteran of 331 appearances between 1977 and 1991, reached for the phone. He called Gray, whom he had faced in East Midlands derbies against Nottingham before they both moved into coaching, and arranged for one of his Oakham 1st XV to be seen.

Watson embarked on a winding road that has eventually carried him to South Africa on the back of a superb Six Nations. Smith, universally and often reverentially known by his nickname of ‘Dosser’, estimates that Scotland’s all-action cult hero is the 30th Lion he has coached.

Watson will become the third Oakham old boy among that group. Lewis Moody and Tom Croft have preceded him, giving Smith a hat-trick of protégés to have represented the Lions since he joined the Rutland independent school in 1995.

“They’re fantastic role models,” says Smith, who admits it feels “special” that the trio are all back-rowers like him. Incidentally, if they were all available for an Oakham exhibition game, he would keep Watson at openside with Croft wearing six and Moody anchoring the scrum.

“You do have to be careful when they come back during term time, though” Smith adds. “I met Lewis for a coffee in town once and I told him: ‘We’re going through the school – but don’t stop. Just say hi to the boys and girls as you go through’. Of course, he stopped.

“He signed hundreds of autographs and I got a battering over email because so many kids were late for lessons! Hamish’s reaction when I told him this story was: ‘Do you think they’ll do that when I come back?’ Talk about humble. I’m sure I’ll be getting a battering over email again.”

Tim Payne, Danny Grewcock, Simon Shaw, Richard Hill, Lawrence Dallaglio and James Haskell all worked alongside Smith with England Students and age-group teams. Hill, currently team manager under Eddie Jones, occasionally touches base with Smith to natter about talent they have spotted.

It is his affiliation with Tigers, which has lasted almost 50 years, that truly reflects the scale of Smith’s influence. In his many diverse roles from first-team coach to designated mentor via running children’s summer courses at community clubs, the 63-year-old has encountered a vast pride of Lions.

Among the backs have been “amazingly skilful” Austin Healey, “flamboyant” Geordan Murphy, Will Greenwood, both Underwood brothers, Tim Stimpson, Ollie Smith, Ben Youngs, Manu Tuilagi and 2009 tourist Harry Ellis.

“He was destined to become one of the world’s greatest scrum-halves,” says Smith, who established an Under-16 team to capture more local talent for Tigers. Ellis, blighted by injuries before his retirement at 28, was in its inaugural intake.

The 30 British and Irish Lions coached by Ian Smith
Neil Back (1997, 2001 and 2005 tours), Dan Cole (2013 and 2017), Martin Corry (2001 and 2005), Tom Croft (2009 and 2013), Lawrence Dallaglio (1997, 2001 and 2005), Harry Ellis (2009), Danny Grewcock (2001 and 2005), Will Greenwood (1997, 2001 and 2005) James Haskell (2017) Austin Healey (1997 and 2001), Richard Hill (1997, 2001 and 2005), Martin Johnson (1993, 1997 and 2001), Ben Kay (2005), Eric Miller (1997), Lewis Moody (2005), Darren Morris (2001), Geordan Murphy (2005), Tim Payne (2009), Dean Richards (1989 and 1993), Graham Rowntree (1997 and 2005), Oliver Smith (2005), Simon Shaw (1997, 2005 and 2009) Tim Stimpson (1997), Manu Tuilagi (2013), Rory Underwood (1989 and 1993) Tony Underwood (1993 and 1997), Ben Youngs (2013), Tom Youngs (2013), Hamish Watson (2021), Dorian West (2001)

Graham Rowntree, Dorian West, Neil Back, Martin Johnson and Ben Kay constitute a decent start to the list of Leicester forwards. Smith rates understated Martin Corry extremely highly: “He just got on with things. You would never know ‘Cozza’ was a World Cup-winner”.

Gifted Wales loosehead prop Darren Morris arrived at Tigers in 2003, two years after travelling to Australia with the Lions. Smith recalls Rowntree and Darren Garforth laying on an uncompromising welcome during a defensive drill.

Eric Miller, the versatile Ireland back-rower who faced the Springboks under Ian McGeechan and Jim Telfer in 1997, used to frustrate Dean Richards because of how long he needed to clarify calls and strike-moves ahead of Leicester matches. When conversation turns to Richards, the game understanding of Newcastle Falcons’ director of rugby stands out.

“Dean is one of the most remarkable human beings I’ve come across,” Smith continues. “When we played together before I retired in 1991, I used to ask him where his secret tunnels under the pitch were.

“He’d be able to go from there to there to there and then be back under a high ball. Meanwhile, I was running my balls off chasing everything!”

Smith has relished watching Dan Cole, a Lion in 2013 and 2017, find a “second wind” recently. But the recipient of the fondest tribute might raise eyebrows.

Tom Youngs had been a midfield partner of Matt, Smith’s son – now one of Steve Borthwick’s assistant coaches at Welford Road, having amassed 228 matches for Leicester himself. For the success of his positional switch to hooker, and his stoicism in dealing with the personal turmoil of his wife’s cancer battle, Youngs has earned profound respect.

“He’s the player that, for me, never really gets the accolades he deserves,” Smith says. “At the end of the season he made his first Premiership start at hooker [2012-13], he started there for the Lions [against Australia].

“I think he has a case for being the greatest Leicester Tigers captain of all time. Martin Johnson, Dean Richards and Peter Wheeler have won this and that. How many have had to deal with what Tom has had to deal with? I’m so full of admiration for him.”

Less surprising is the fact that Smith’s dedication inspires steadfast loyalty. Just last week, Johnson popped into Oakham to help with a lineout session.  He stayed for an hour and a half.

“There were about 36 forwards there,” explains Smith, “Some of them might struggle to make the 4th XV next year, but ‘Johnno’ gave them all the same time, guidance and thought.”

Smith sits at the centre of a thriving – and expanding – network. He has been able to phone Neil Back and Richard Cockerill, past and present Edinburgh coaches, to hear about Watson’s progress since being released by Tigers as a teenager.

By 2025, two more Oakham alumni could be challenging for Lions berths. Leicester’s Jack van Poortvliet and Sam Costelow of Scarlets would form an exciting Anglo-Welsh half-back partnership.

Coaching, Smith believes, still gives him as much pleasure these days as when he started some 30 years back. Variety is one reason for that. As well as guiding Oakham to successive Daily Mail Cup triumphs in 2002 and 2003, another proud moment was assembling an Under-12 ‘D’ team and watching them draw 40-40 draw with Trent College.

“Your best coaching can happen in a coffee shop,” says Smith. “You might get talking and find out someone has a family member that’s not so well, for example. That might be why they’ve been off in training or whatever.

“To a large extent, my approach has been about getting to know people. I give everyone a promise: I’ll will help to make them better. How much better they become is dependent on a lot of variables – their work-rate, belief, desire, understanding.”

Watson, like Moody and Croft before him, has climbed all the way to the top thanks, in part, to a foundation laid by their mentor at Oakham.

“The other two will have been in contact to congratulate Hamish,” Smith says. “I’m sure he’s had someone who sat three rows back from him in a maths lesson get in contact as well.

“It’s a great privilege to hear them say that some of their best times in rugby were playing here at Oakham with their really close mates, the ones they grew up with. That’s such a thrill.”

When Watson was chosen by Warren Gatland to face Japan, Smith sent him a text message that read: “What could be better than making your Lions debut at Murrayfield? Maybe a series win in South Africa.”

An untimely concussion in training robbed Watson of that first experience, but you can be sure he will give his all to win Test selection and carry the fight to the Springboks. Smith’s drive to Nottingham was well worth it.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

Chunky24

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Re: Lions
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2021, 08:06:21 PM »
Also the panel and commentators were spot on i could, like Maggie and Sam who along with O'Gara were great, I could listen to Ian McGeechan all day.

backdoc

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Re: Lions
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2021, 08:26:54 PM »
Thanks Rossm

If only I had possessed some talent!

Old Geezer

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Re: Lions
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2021, 01:25:58 PM »
I was very impressed with a lot of what the Lions did and attempted.  I still think that matching the physicality of SA at scrum time and on the gain line and discipline over penalties will be the key to success.  On the latter point, the efs will be crucial.  We have a lot behind the scrum and I think they are a little lacking in that area.

hopwood

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Re: Lions
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2021, 01:53:03 PM »
I was very impressed with a lot of what the Lions did and attempted.  I still think that matching the physicality of SA at scrum time and on the gain line and discipline over penalties will be the key to success.  On the latter point, the efs will be crucial.  We have a lot behind the scrum and I think they are a little lacking in that area.

I too was impressed.
There was no sign of Warrenball just yet. They played with real pace and intent and I thoroughly enjoyed the game.
It will be fascinating to see how the partnerships come together.
10/12/13 especially.

Hamish Watson, Lawes and Josh Adams all put up their hands for selection. Harris looked impressive too.
George threw very well.
Hogg needed that game to get his confidence back.
And Daly looked much more at home at centre, albeit against a tiring defence.

The Tour may not be what we wanted it to be (is anything in Covid?) but I still find it utterly fascinating and extremely watchable.

InBetweenWasp

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Re: Lions
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2021, 09:52:34 AM »
+1 hopwood

It’s a thoroughly entertaining ride even if not quite the same.  We had originally planned to tour South Africa for the Lions, but took the call in 2019 not to having seen a house come up that we hadn’t expected and brought. 

Australia 2025 it’ll have to be with the kids in tow.  Not sure school will be too happy with us but feels like a good, all round life experience that won’t be in exam years and so hopefully the negative of missing the last few weeks of a school year won’t outweigh them seeing and touring Australia as well as a few rugby games!

I have to say, the squad for this tour didn’t feel as strong as others (to me, at least) but I’ve been impressed.

Centres and Back 3 are hugely competitive.  Van de Merwe looked great against Japan and took his try well.  Adams is scoring for fun, Rees-Zammit has the pace to outpace most and Watson has the footwork.

I love Liam Williams and think I’d have him over Hogg in my test team but that feels harsh on Hogg. 

How on earth do you whittle those down to 3 starters + 1 bench spot most likely.  In fact, I suspect the bench spot will go to Daly to provide cover for 11,13,14 and 15.

Similarly with the centres.  I think for test matches if you go Finn at 10 you need Farrell at 12.  Whereas with Biggar at 10, you can have an Aki or Harris/Henshaw at 12.  I’d be inclined to go Finn/Farrell at this stage as I’d like to see us score tries.  But suspect Biggar is the safe pair of hands with Farrell on the bench to provide 10/12 cover.   

Looks like Lawes will likely get a test spot as a lineout option, but I’d quite like to see both Watson and Curry in the back-row together.

In fact, the more I think about it the more competitive it feels!