Wasps to 'review policies' after ban plea for 'novelty Native American headdress

[TheTameWasp]

I really don't like Exeter Chiefs fans wearing native American Indian headdress or the chanting that rather jarring tomahawk chop but if Wasps were to ban them it would really open up a can of worms.

Any movement to redress this issue has to come from within Exeter Chiefs otherwise it just looks petty and unsporting. The open letter should have been addressed to them not us.

The Wasps Report guys are not official representatives of the Wasps fans base and I find it rather arrogant of them to think they have the right to speak for the whole supporter base.

[backdoc]

I hate the damn noise they make and think the headgear is more than a bit silly.

But I don't think it sits well for Wasps to be taking this up, and it puts Vaughan in an awkward position when he has more than enough on his hands.

[RogerE]

I really don't like Exeter Chiefs fans wearing native American Indian headdress or the chanting that rather jarring tomahawk chop but if Wasps were to ban them it would really open up a can of worms.

Any movement to redress this issue has to come from within Exeter Chiefs otherwise it just looks petty and unsporting. The open letter should have been addressed to them not us.

The Wasps Report guys are not official representatives of the Wasps fans base and I find it rather arrogant of them to think they have the right to speak for the whole supporter base.

Absolutely.

Any moves to ban the headdress must come from Exeter themselves or  PRL so that a ban, if introduced, is instigated by ALL Premiership clubs, not just by one.

[BdeB]

I’m not convinced this is genuinely a Wasps viewpoint and instead it is more a response to an open letter from The Wasps Report Twitter account.

Despite the good intentions, I’m not sure it’s a reflection of Wasps fans in general and IMO opens a can of worms.

Where does it end? - Should they now lobby Saracens to change their name which is presumably offensive to the Muslim community within the UK given the historic connotations?

I agree.
Currently there are so many bored people being heavily offended on behalf of people they’ve never met nor had a conversation with.
Yes…there needs to be some sensitivity here and there. Absolutely.
But if Wasps get involved, it’s opening a can of worms.

Barbarians next?
Saracens?
Sharks?
And then what about White Anglo Saxon Protestants?

The world is becoming hyper sensitive and offended by everything. It’s a very destructive pathway to be following where we all pander to a few outraged people who have too much time on their hands.
If a group of genuine Native Americans were highly offended, I would sit down and listen to everything they had to say and find suitable solutions.
But that’s not the case here.

It is not the name Chiefs that is the problem it is the branding. Ironically the name Saracens might be more problematic but it would be a real issue if their branding incorporated Islamic imagery, but as it doesn’t it should be ok.
I don’t think Ex have anywhere to go now except to change. Once something like this is identified as an issue to refuse change does take you into very disputed territory especially as the change is just branding not the name. 

[HDAWG]

Any movement to redress this issue has to come from within Exeter Chiefs otherwise it just looks petty and unsporting. The open letter should have been addressed to them not us.

Completely agree. It's like reprimanding someone else's child. Regardless of what you think about cultural appropriation, it's not our place to instigate Chief's changes. The club can bring this up with chiefs, but if we ban it before they do it's not right.

[hopwood]

If a group of genuine Native Americans were highly offended, I would sit down and listen to everything they had to say and find suitable solutions.
But that’s not the case here.

Did you read Rossm's post?

Yes I did.
It describes initiation ceremonies, similar to those around the world, that allow the passage of boy to become man. To move from immaturity to making mature decisions. To taking on responsibility and living outside his comfort zone. To becoming a mature man.
We dearly miss those ritual ceremonies today.
The book King, Warrior, Magician, Lover talks about this passage.

Our very own Craig White embraces this process with his Men without Masks retreats. He did a very good podcast with Haskell the other week.

The point I'm making is that I've not heard the outrage from one Native American who wears the headdress. Or indeed from family of their ancestors.
I want to hear their views...not the views of outraged people over here, outraged on behalf of someone else.

[Wombles]

Cultural appropriation is an interesting subject, however mascots and club branding based upon generalisations and long ago held historical perceptions can negatively impact on the behaviours of those that then meet people from the culture appropriated.
Of course in sport passions run deep, our team is core to our lives, and in many cases support for our team runs through the generations, and we expend a lot of our time, money and emotions journeying with our club. Of course that means the imagery, club badge and how we behave as supporters is also deeply felt, and when challenges arise that work against that which we hold dear, it can lead to strong emotional turmoil.

My suspicion with Exeter Chiefs is that everything is so remote for them. The club in 1999 decided to utilise the historical perception of the native Americans, this included utilisation of war chants, aggressive posturing with a multi purpose tool the tomahawk, which is recognised as a weapon -not inaccurate- as cinema regularly used it in the westerns most of us will have watched growing up. The club badge shows headdresses which not only honour senior native Americans, but is easily recounted in the mind to generate images of crazy horse and sitting bull, who given the defence of their lands are remembered as warriors and leaders of people who attacked and killed.

The above does not fairly reflect the history of this people, but pushes a more war like, aggressive population. And equally it does not reflect who they are as a people today. As uncomfortable as the recognition of this is, it is why sporting teams in America have changed their ways, as they live with the descendants of these people, and it is this cultural misappropriation that can lead to negative stereotyping, which in turn leads to unpleasant behaviour towards and marginalising of native Americans.

This is why my sentence above about all of this being so remote for Chiefs supporters was stated. This is an issue that is lived by people in America, but not by those in the West Country. When you do not experience in your lives the impacts of such decisions, then it is hard to draw accurate conclusions, and thus when something to which we hold dear and has importance in our lives comes under criticism it is hard not to react in defence.

This is the uncomfortable truth that Chiefs are facing, but also why it is also important to recognise that though no offence was made by their club or those that support them. But when we learn that what we do has a negative impact on others, then we must strive to change for the better.

https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insights/article/2021/more-than-mascots-its-time-to-end-cultural-appropriation-of-native-americans-in-sports/

Chris

Once a Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp!

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Yes I did.

The point I'm making is that I've not heard the outrage from one Native American who wears the headdress. Or indeed from family of their ancestors.
I want to hear their views...not the views of outraged people over here, outraged on behalf of someone else.

You realise Rossm's post was a direct quote from a Chickasaw Native American born in America who now lives in the UK?

[Rossm]

Thanks for posting that link, Wombles. Interesting read. A most vitriolic debate on the subject is taking place on the Exeter board on Sports Network. An interesting point has been raised by some of their posters: without a complete rebranding, Exeter may find it harder to attract major (and also presumably minor) sponsorship money. Also their home games may become ignored by TV companies (remember live premiership rugby is now available to US viewers and. despite their current status, cease to be broadcast. Ultimately money talks and Tony Rowe isn't getting any younger, so I expect a complete rebrand sooner rather than later.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Yes I did.

The point I'm making is that I've not heard the outrage from one Native American who wears the headdress. Or indeed from family of their ancestors.
I want to hear their views...not the views of outraged people over here, outraged on behalf of someone else.

You realise Rossm's post was a direct quote from a Chickasaw Native American born in America who now lives in the UK?

For what it is worth here is the original source from a website dedicated to Native American issues.  https://www.indianz.com/News/2020/11/19/tony-perry-racism-against-native-people-is-alive-and-well-around-the-world/

[MarleyWasp]

I have a question for those who disagree with the notion that Wasps should ban Native American headwear:

Let's say if Exeter had been formed by a group of employees from a bank in 1871 and for 127 years been referred to locally as the "Bankers" then in 1999 they decided to change their name to the Exeter Bankers and decided that for branding, as apparently a lot of Jews work for banks (I say apparently, I'm Jewish and don't know a single Jew who works in the industry) they'll base their mascot around a caricature of a Rabbi counting money, choose a logo that represents a depiction of a Jew used in 1930s German literature and renamed their bars after Jewish prayer sites whilst their fans wear yarmulkes, fake payot (long curly sideburns that men in the Hassidic community have) and fake long noses.

If a couple of Wasps supporters using a Twitter account of a podcast they set up 5 years before  with a total following that represented around 25% of our total season ticket holders and around 12% of our total support base wrote to the club and asked them to consider banning any antisemitic paraphernalia from the ground when we play Exeter, would you be opposed to the idea?

[InBetweenWasp]

My disagreement with the notion isn’t around whether it should or shouldn’t happen, it’s more so that I don’t believe it should be Wasps who spear-head such efforts and discussions nor investing time in.

It’s a very different scenario if, for example, Tony Perry had been the one to write an open letter to Exeter, it’s fans, the PRL and the other clubs to garner support for such issues.

The Wasps Report may have a following equivalent to 25% of STHs and 12% of an average gate, but it doesn’t mean those followers are such people as opposed to rugby fans and journalists who aren’t Wasps Supporters nor does it mean that whatever is said, or written by them has the full support of their followers.

Where Rugby in the general and where Raciscm in the UK is concerned I think concerns and actions relating to the cultural appropriation of Native Americans should be well down the list of priorities.

I’m sure that the cultural appropriation of Jews, Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs would be viewed and dealt with differently to that of North American Indians due to the high number of people it could and would impact in the UK.

My issue is more around Why should The Wasps Report be putting such effort into the plight of the Native Americans when in the rugby community there are bigger issues to tackle. 

For example, the plight of Pacific Islander Rugby Players who at an international level are often treated unfairly and closer to home, many of those plying their trade in Europe do so in different conditions and circumstances than your average player of European descent.

Levelling up their opportunities would almost certainly do something positive for both rugby as well as the families of players and communities within the Islands the benefits of which and the scale of impact would almost certainly outweigh the negative impacts of a Chiefs fan wearing a head dress at the CBS to Tony Perry and the handful of Native Americans living in the UK (the number of which is so small there is no meaningful estimate available in any government stats).

[Vespula Vulgaris]

There are other things that need fixing so don't bother with this one?

Someone has to act first, why should it not be Wasps.

If you write an open letter to Wasps about supporting Pacific Islanders properly then I will put all the small amount of weight this site has behind it.

It isn't an either or...

[InBetweenWasp]

Perhaps one of the people behind The Wasps Report might wish to join the discussion here to explain why it’s so high on their agenda - why do they feel it warrants such actions, which of the face of it appear to be trying to solve a very, very small issue within the UK and the Rugby Community.

And sure, someone has to be first - My question is why should Wasps be the first.  Why should it be more important to them than other issues within the UK and Rugby Community?

Lastly, if it’s as important as The Wasps Report appear to believe it is, are they also lobbying toy stores to prevent the sale of Cowboy and Indian toys? - Surely that is a far greater scale of cultural appropriation within the UK and therefore significantly more offensive than a handful of people supporting their time whilst wearing a head dress. 

So yes I agree it starts somewhere but not convinced it’s a couple of fans lobbying Wasps Management even if the Telegraph seem to believe it’s greater than that. 

And yes, I also believe that other issues deserve greater attention from the rugby community than this - It’s a question of prioritising.

[backdoc]

There are other things that need fixing so don't bother with this one?

Someone has to act first, why should it not be Wasps.

If you write an open letter to Wasps about supporting Pacific Islanders properly then I will put all the small amount of weight this site has behind it.

It isn't an either or...

Agree, but I know which I think is more important.

If the supporters of every Premiership club got together on the subject of Pacific Rugby Welfare, the clubs may do something constructive.