Wasps to 'review policies' after ban plea for 'novelty Native American headdress

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Perhaps one of the people behind The Wasps Report might wish to join the discussion here to explain why it’s so high on their agenda - why do they feel it warrants such actions, which of the face of it appear to be trying to solve a very, very small issue within the UK and the Rugby Community.

And sure, someone has to be first - My question is why should Wasps be the first.  Why should it be more important to them than other issues within the UK and Rugby Community?

Lastly, if it’s as important as The Wasps Report appear to believe it is, are they also lobbying toy stores to prevent the sale of Cowboy and Indian toys? - Surely that is a far greater scale of cultural appropriation within the UK and therefore significantly more offensive than a handful of people supporting their time whilst wearing a head dress. 

So yes I agree it starts somewhere but not convinced it’s a couple of fans lobbying Wasps Management even if the Telegraph seem to believe it’s greater than that. 

And yes, I also believe that other issues deserve greater attention from the rugby community than this - It’s a question of prioritising.

There is a logical fallacy known as "Whataboutism" or "Whataboutery". Someone raises a point, and instead of actually refuting it, the respondent simply asks "What about something else?"  It offers nothing to the discussion, simply tries to derail it and distract from the topic in hand.

It happens with political ideology: "The Nazis were terrible" - countered with "But what about the Communists? They were just as bad."

It happened with Trump: "Your attitude to women is terrible" countered with "What about wicked Hillary Clinton?"

It happens with foreign aid: "We should help people in Syria" countered with "What about homeless people in this country?"

It happens with Racism: "Black lives matter" countered with "What about white lives? Don't they matter too?"

And it is exactly what you are doing here: "We shouldn't support the damaging and racist behaviour of a rugby club" countered with "What about the Pacific Islanders?  They're important too."

It isn't a zero-sum game. We can refuse to insult Native Americans, and be all for the equal treatment of Pacific Islanders in rugby.

So I ask again, why is it we shouldn't at least consider to refuse to let this take place in our stadium?

[Vespula Vulgaris]

There are other things that need fixing so don't bother with this one?

Someone has to act first, why should it not be Wasps.

If you write an open letter to Wasps about supporting Pacific Islanders properly then I will put all the small amount of weight this site has behind it.

It isn't an either or...

Agree, but I know which I think is more important.

If the supporters of every Premiership club got together on the subject of Pacific Rugby Welfare, the clubs may do something constructive.

Ok, so let's do something about that too.  I know you personally are involved with Dan Leo and the PRPW. What can we here on this forum, me as the owner of a video-marketing agency, and Wasps as a club do to help?

[InBetweenWasp]

So I ask again, why is it we shouldn't at least consider to refuse to let this take place in our stadium?

Because I don’t believe it is a big enough problem within the UK and the rugby society for Wasps compared to other issues to be spending time and effort evaluating it.  I personally think there are bigger issues in rugby and Uk society that Wasps could tackle and have a greater impact.

Hopefully someone is prepared to share a little more insight into why it should be so important to Wasps.

So far, the only answer put forward is ‘Why not’ and ‘it has to start somewhere’ which doesn’t really explain the attention and clamour for the actions for such an edge case (in the UK and in rugby) not why it should start with Wasps.

It’s not about whataboutary, it’s simply about trying to understand why it’s so important to these Wasps Fans.

I’m open to having my mind changed on it and accept that it is a particularly big, poignant issue in the US but genuinely don’t understand why people are demanding so much attention towards it in the Uk when we have a virtually negligible Native American population and it seem to an idiot like me that there are bigger areas to tackle when it comes to the cultural appropriation of Native Americans in the UK that a few Chiefs fans. 

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Because I don’t believe it is a big enough problem within the UK and the rugby society for Wasps compared to other issues to be spending time and effort evaluating it.  I personally think there are bigger issues in rugby and Uk society that Wasps could tackle and have a greater impact.

How does it negatively affect you if someone else does something they believe in?

Hopefully someone is prepared to share a little more insight into why it should be so important to Wasps.

So far, the only answer put forward is ‘Why not’ and ‘it has to start somewhere’ which doesn’t really explain the attention and clamour for the actions for such an edge case (in the UK and in rugby) not why it should start with Wasps.

It’s not about whataboutary, it’s simply about trying to understand why it’s so important to these Wasps Fans.

I’m open to having my mind changed on it and accept that it is a particularly big, poignant issue in the US but genuinely don’t understand why people are demanding so much attention towards it in the Uk when we have a virtually negligible Native American population and it seem to an idiot like me that there are bigger areas to tackle when it comes to the cultural appropriation of Native Americans in the UK that a few Chiefs fans.
[/quote]

It causes you no harm, no-one is asking you to take on any tasks, it won't change how you support the team you support, it costs you no money, and it doesn't stop any other issue from being dealt with.  So really the question should be why do you care so much that you are arguing that we shouldn't stop offending people?

If you still need a reason for Wasps to take this stance, then how about this.  Rugby Union is on the rise in the US, there are vast numbers of potential fans willing to put their money into the game, and if we manage to capture their imagination, there are levels of potential success an order of magnitude higher than anything any UK team has achieved simply waiting to be claimed.

A team that is willing to take a stand against insulting and denegrating Native Americans could well be in a better position to capture a large part of the US rugby fan base.  I for one would love to see Wasps being one of the first global superclubs of the rugby world.

[InBetweenWasp]

If you feel like I am arguing, then I apologise as I’m really not.  I’m trying to just understand the motivations.

So, far that I think that it opens a can of worms for Wasps and The Wasps Report and that I don’t think that it’s Wasps’ issue to lead on you seem to suggest that I must be inherently for cultural appropriation.

It’s a bit like the old argument in society last year of ‘you want my granny to die’ when debating should we or shouldn’t we be opening up. 

It’s a very defensive tone coming back and if the real reason The Wasps Report and Steven Vaughan have decided to do something by is simply ‘why not’ and it’s nothing more than that, then good for them even if it doesn’t help me understand why it’s so important to them.

You’re right, it doesn’t affect me nor am I being asked to get involved.

Surely, the only driver for this is to enhance the lives of Native Americans and in no way should the hyper the ticks future business interests of Wasps come into the decision making process of whether it is something that should or shouldn’t be banned within the stadium. 

[Raggs]

If Wasps are welcoming them into the ground, then it's Wasps issue too.

Native Americans did approach Exeter first, and Exeter did virtually nothing about it. So moving onto their peers seems sensible. There have been requests from members of quite a few clubs being made to many of them actually. It's just Wasps seems to be the first to have actually responded (perhaps because of the size of the Wasps report).

It's not about being offended on someone else's behalf, it's about recognising that someone else is offended, and trying to do the right thing for them.

PI players definitely have issues too, but I'm not so sure if there's an easy thing for Wasps to do to solve that. Pay their PI player's a fair wage, I have to assume we do. Allow players to go away and play in 7s tournaments, just so they can change their nationality to a smaller PI nation, and spend more time absent from the club on internationals that the club would have planned on keeping them for, Wasps have done that too...

[Rossm]

So I ask again, why is it we shouldn't at least consider to refuse to let this take place in our stadium?

Hopefully someone is prepared to share a little more insight into why it should be so important to Wasps.

So far, the only answer put forward is ‘Why not’ and ‘it has to start somewhere’ which doesn’t really explain the attention and clamour for the actions for such an edge case (in the UK and in rugby) not why it should start with Wasps.

It’s not about whataboutary, it’s simply about trying to understand why it’s so important to these Wasps Fans.

I think it is important. It is also important to Wasps as we play Exeter at least twice a season and possibly more than once at our own stadium. You may say that I am jumping on a band wagon but I have always found the headdresses and tomahawk chant to be embarrassing. I have never liked them. I was going to suggest on their board that they rename their bars as 'Little Big Horn' and 'Wounded Knee' for balance. At least the latter could be said to have a rugby connection But having followed the bile and vitriol being spewed on their board, I would be afraid that some of them might be taking me seriously.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

I have a question for those who disagree with the notion that Wasps should ban Native American headwear:

Let's say if Exeter had been formed by a group of employees from a bank in 1871 and for 127 years been referred to locally as the "Bankers" then in 1999 they decided to change their name to the Exeter Bankers and decided that for branding, as apparently a lot of Jews work for banks (I say apparently, I'm Jewish and don't know a single Jew who works in the industry) they'll base their mascot around a caricature of a Rabbi counting money, choose a logo that represents a depiction of a Jew used in 1930s German literature and renamed their bars after Jewish prayer sites whilst their fans wear yarmulkes, fake payot (long curly sideburns that men in the Hassidic community have) and fake long noses.

If a couple of Wasps supporters using a Twitter account of a podcast they set up 5 years before  with a total following that represented around 25% of our total season ticket holders and around 12% of our total support base wrote to the club and asked them to consider banning any antisemitic paraphernalia from the ground when we play Exeter, would you be opposed to the idea?

I would hold the same position: I'd support Wasps requesting that the image isn't displayed and though it would stick in the craw I would be against a ban for the reasons gave.

I appreciate you were giving us a hypothetical, but I suspect the image you gave would probably, and rightly, fall foul of anti-racism laws.

[Mellie]

And sure, someone has to be first - My question is why should Wasps be the first. 

If someone isn't first then nobody does anything.

An argument put forward on this site is that it's a Chiefs internal issue for them to sort out and nobody else's business.

The same could have been said of apartheid. It was a SA problem for them to address once the issue was raised by people internally. Without other countries putting pressure on them and taking action nothing would have happened.  It still took decades to get change.

I'm not even convinced that Wasps are even thinking about unilaterally banning Chiefs imagery. Maybe, by examining the issue against Wasps values, they can legitimately show that there is a conflict. From there direct communication with Exeter, other clubs, the Prem and the RFU may lead to discussion and pressure that may be effective.

Another argument is that it's not that important as it doesn't affect that many people in the UK. However, it's the same principle. In a country with not many black people is it ok to wear black face, Afro wigs and make monkey chants? Not really that different to warpaint, headdresses and tomahawk chop chant.

[DGP Wasp]

However well intentioned, I still think it smacks of pettiness borne out of resentment for Exeter's recent success. Whether or not this was the case, perception matters and the message is massively diluted if there is even a suspicion of vested interest.

Better to seek the support of as many other Prem clubs as possible and present a united front to Premier Rugby and BT Sport, to apply pressure on Exeter to get their house in order. Confiscating head dresses from supporters at the turnstiles will only breed resentment. Will we be supplying electrical tape to black out the club badge on their shirts too? What about the players' shirts? Let's do this, but do it diplomatically.

And let's not forget that just a few short years ago Wasps actively promoted Exeter's vist as "Cowboys vs Indians", encouraging home fans to dress accordingly, and in doing so endorsing Exeter's branding and the wearing of native American headgear. I don't recall any objections being raised at that time on here or on any other forum. Doesn't leave us particularly well placed to be the club to cast the first stone.

[InBetweenWasp]

However well intentioned, I still think it smacks of pettiness borne out of resentment for Exeter's recent success. Whether or not this was the case, perception matters and the message is massively diluted if there is even a suspicion of vested interest.

Crikey.  That's a strong opening paragraph for a Monday morning.  Agree with the other two paragraphs however despite not knowing who the people are behind The Wasps Report and so not knowing their motivations behind this I cannot seriously believe they're making the effort to highlight it because they resent Exeter's on-field successes or to try and increase our chances of beating Exeter at The CBS.

[DGP Wasp]

However well intentioned, I still think it smacks of pettiness borne out of resentment for Exeter's recent success. Whether or not this was the case, perception matters and the message is massively diluted if there is even a suspicion of vested interest.

Crikey.  That's a strong opening paragraph for a Monday morning.  Agree with the other two paragraphs however despite not knowing who the people are behind The Wasps Report and so not knowing their motivations behind this I cannot seriously believe they're making the effort to highlight it because they resent Exeter's on-field successes or to try and increase our chances of beating Exeter at The CBS.

That's not what I said at all. It's about perception, and to an external observer, particularly one from South Devon it is very open to being interpreted as a petty, opportunistic swipe at a rival, rather than the well intentioned, pro active attempt to apply pressure on Exeter to take a long hard look at themselves that I believe it to be. Just think the wrong tool is being used for the job. Threats by a rival club to ban visiting supporters from wearing certain head gear and using certain chants will only strengthen the resolve of those supporters, rather than leading them to reflect on its significance.

[matelot22]

However well intentioned, I still think it smacks of pettiness borne out of resentment for Exeter's recent success. Whether or not this was the case, perception matters and the message is massively diluted if there is even a suspicion of vested interest.

Crikey.  That's a strong opening paragraph for a Monday morning.  Agree with the other two paragraphs however despite not knowing who the people are behind The Wasps Report and so not knowing their motivations behind this I cannot seriously believe they're making the effort to highlight it because they resent Exeter's on-field successes or to try and increase our chances of beating Exeter at The CBS.

That's not what I said at all. It's about perception, and to an external observer, particularly one from South Devon it is very open to being interpreted as a petty, opportunistic swipe at a rival, rather than the well intentioned, pro active attempt to apply pressure on Exeter to take a long hard look at themselves that I believe it to be. Just think the wrong tool is being used for the job. Threats by a rival club to ban visiting supporters from wearing certain head gear and using certain chants will only strengthen the resolve of those supporters, rather than leading them to reflect on its significance.

I agree with you 100%, Wasps will be seen as interfering killjoys trying to stamp out what most fans regard as a harmless bit of fun.

[hookender]

Going too far ?  Surely this means they would have to look at rugby moniker in case it offends Asians
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjZpYng_8byAhUylFwKHSBSCWYQ0PADKAB6BAgcEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Ffootball%2F2021%2Faug%2F23%2Fnew-zealand-football-diversity-review-could-bring-end-to-all-whites-nickname&usg=AOvVaw1WULSh5qUSyrSs_rXigfZM

[matelot22]

Ironically the name Saracens might be more problematic but it would be a real issue if their branding incorporated Islamic imagery, but as it doesn’t it should be ok.

Surely the crescent moon and star is regarded very much as Islamic imagery?