TRP

[Hymenoptera]

I think our back's need a proper revamp...I'm happy with the forwards.

13 -Dog should not be considered a 13, he has one mode and that's trying to beat the defender, he has no kicking game, isn't a distributor, def can't read a game and quite frankly can be narrow sighted at times. He has to remain on the wing.
Fek's - as much as I like the guy, I also don't think him moving on is a bad idea, he does some good but hasn't been consistent enough for the $ he'll command.
Spink - Looks like he could develop, haven't seen enough yet.

12 - Mills used to be the best 12 in England, when he wasn't injured, only problem is he has been injured most of his career, he's 12's Henry Trinder. His contract was a gamble, which didn't pay off sadly. I don't know what Ryan Mills of 2022 provides but I'm tired of players that are unfortunately constantly injured/unavailable.
Gop - I wonder if it's now a season too far, he looks fit but his game savvy seems to be evading him. He used to control games, not so much these days.

Of the other notables:
Minnozi just hasn't hit the highs of his pre ACL play and I'm not sure he has lived up to his billing.
Watson, still a 7's player in 15's, requires space to provide anything special and constantly injured.
Kiberige i'm torn on, I still can't figure out if he's good enough..he perplexes me.
Mehon - I'd like to see more of what this guy has, early glimpses, he looks alright.
Miller is a tough one, the most injured man in rugby based on minutes played - yet when fit he covers multiple positions and is decent at them all...but just never available.
Wolstenholm - Has to be considered 4th choice, behind Hoogs then Porter.
Booj - 12/13 cover, nothing more.

I'd like to bring in either of the Cardiff centers or their equivalent, pacific islanders that have gain line, offloads and rugby IQ to read the game and see opportunities. SA must have more Delandes, Eusterhaeizens...just below Intl standard?
Worc's Oli Morris looks a real player, likely contracted but i'd love a sniff around him.
As a point of differnec, what about Nayavoira from Saints, isn't playing and I dont think he was used correctly, but he is a point of difference and rumored to be on the move.

We need players that can do more than just take a ball, take contact or ship it on. I'm desperate for some creativity, a WLR, Beale that isn't quite at the elite level...they must be out there.

Lastly..Is Kock the right move. Great player no argument, but is it an area that we need to be improving by spending what is likely a lot of money for someone that wont be available for large chunks of the year. I struggle to believe this makes sense. again, SA must have more Kock's just under the top 3 slots?

I think our recruitment needs some real focus this year, if contracts are up.

[wasps]

Was it as long ago as Stuart Abbott and Fraser Waters that we had a very good pair of centres or am I forgetting some significant names. Erinle started very well but then disappeared rather quickly - because of injuries?

That would almost certainly be the best centre partnership we had.

Since then, it's tricky.
Waldouck and someone
Flutey and....
Chris bell
Ben Jacobs
But it feels like sacrilege to even mention these options in the same breath as waters/abbott

More recently it was Jimmy, but the Cipriani/ Jimmy combo where anyone outside them could be a lethal option in the 13 channel

[Westy68]

I don’t think it’s brutal on Le Bourgeois. Most recognise his limitations. The fact that most are calling for a first up 12 is not a direct criticism of him.

Shugs is spot on. If our first choice 12 was playing MLB would have had very limited game time. I’m sure he tries his hardest but unfortunately he isn’t a first choice 12 even 2nd choice, that’s just life.

In the summer we needed a 12, jimmy can’t be asked to play so often Mills is injury prone and MLB is not good enough to play so often. It is want it is.

For me criticism should be towards the coaches for not seeing that

[Shugs]

Agree about the backs. I think Koch is the right signing. With him and West in tandem I see us dominating a fair few up front which might win us games in itself. Backs wise I can’t see Hougaard staying. This year was convenient for him to stay in the UK but I think he’ll move on - probably along with Mills, Watson, Minozzi and Fekitoa.  If Miller stays fit between him, Crossdale and Mehson plus Simonds we’re OK there. Wings wise we have to start seeing the likes of Anderson and Bacon before judging what we need there but we’re probably OK. So I think we’ll need a 9. And we’ll need three new centres. I think Odogwu will be played at 13 and I like the look of Spink (but he also struggles fitness wise). I do think Gopperth will play another year but for me we’ll need two new 12’s. I’d take either of the James brothers at Sale or try and tempt Redpath from Bath. Not too sure what’s available in the SH but I’m sure we’re looking.

[Shugs]

Was it as long ago as Stuart Abbott and Fraser Waters that we had a very good pair of centres or am I forgetting some significant names. Erinle started very well but then disappeared rather quickly - because of injuries?

That would almost certainly be the best centre partnership we had.

Since then, it's tricky.
Waldouck and someone
Flutey and....
Chris bell
Ben Jacobs
But it feels like sacrilege to even mention these options in the same breath as waters/abbott

More recently it was Jimmy, but the Cipriani/ Jimmy combo where anyone outside them could be a lethal option in the 13 channel

Gopperth and Daly wasn’t bad.

[13thWarrior]

English rugby is obsessed with bosh merchants in the centres, rather than genuinely creative attacking players. The number of league converts that have managed to get international caps at 12 or 13 despite not being up to standard (Burgess, Hape, Tompkins, etc) really demonstrates what a crap job we've done at bringing through quality players in this position.

As for Wasps, I agree we must be in the market for 2 centres. If Hartley comes good early, Mills gets and stays fit, and Feks stays then maybe we only need 1, but still we need cover.

[wasps]

Daly
Daly
Daly

I really couldn't think who had been playing centre with Jimmy for so many years.

I know he is no longer viewed in the same way... But his change of pace, step and outside arc really was an X factor.
With Wade outside him they truly terrorised defences, even though it felt like his outside break cramped Wade for space...... It just so happened that Wade didn't need space to beat players

[Westy68]

For me I like a good strong 12 who tackles hard, bash through the line and be a responsible passer.

Gopperth was really good at
tackling, got over the gain line and the bonus was he was exceptional at passing.

13 should be a great runner with the ball, that’s why I liked Elliot. That was a good pairing and something similar would be nice. Redpath is a great shout

[NellyWellyWaspy]

I think our back's need a proper revamp...I'm happy with the forwards.

13 -Dog should not be considered a 13, he has one mode and that's trying to beat the defender, he has no kicking game, isn't a distributor, def can't read a game and quite frankly can be narrow sighted at times. He has to remain on the wing.
Fek's - as much as I like the guy, I also don't think him moving on is a bad idea, he does some good but hasn't been consistent enough for the $ he'll command.
Spink - Looks like he could develop, haven't seen enough yet.

12 - Mills used to be the best 12 in England, when he wasn't injured, only problem is he has been injured most of his career, he's 12's Henry Trinder. His contract was a gamble, which didn't pay off sadly. I don't know what Ryan Mills of 2022 provides but I'm tired of players that are unfortunately constantly injured/unavailable.
Gop - I wonder if it's now a season too far, he looks fit but his game savvy seems to be evading him. He used to control games, not so much these days.

Of the other notables:
Minnozi just hasn't hit the highs of his pre ACL play and I'm not sure he has lived up to his billing.
Watson, still a 7's player in 15's, requires space to provide anything special and constantly injured.
Kiberige i'm torn on, I still can't figure out if he's good enough..he perplexes me.
Mehon - I'd like to see more of what this guy has, early glimpses, he looks alright.
Miller is a tough one, the most injured man in rugby based on minutes played - yet when fit he covers multiple positions and is decent at them all...but just never available.
Wolstenholm - Has to be considered 4th choice, behind Hoogs then Porter.
Booj - 12/13 cover, nothing more.

I'd like to bring in either of the Cardiff centers or their equivalent, pacific islanders that have gain line, offloads and rugby IQ to read the game and see opportunities. SA must have more Delandes, Eusterhaeizens...just below Intl standard?
Worc's Oli Morris looks a real player, likely contracted but i'd love a sniff around him.
As a point of differnec, what about Nayavoira from Saints, isn't playing and I dont think he was used correctly, but he is a point of difference and rumored to be on the move.

We need players that can do more than just take a ball, take contact or ship it on. I'm desperate for some creativity, a WLR, Beale that isn't quite at the elite level...they must be out there.

Lastly..Is Kock the right move. Great player no argument, but is it an area that we need to be improving by spending what is likely a lot of money for someone that wont be available for large chunks of the year. I struggle to believe this makes sense. again, SA must have more Kock's just under the top 3 slots?

I think our recruitment needs some real focus this year, if contracts are up.

In general, I agree. However, as contracts expire at different times, and players leave whether you want or not, getting it all together is tough.

Our backs are not a threat. Not in any position. That allows a team playing against us to organise their defence based on zone marking/coverage.

Our best two backs, if fit, are likely to be Dobby and Ali. But, if you ranked our players against their 1st choice equivalents in each team of the Prem, we would barely scrape 4th of 5th from bottom. Worse, I do not think any would be in the top 6.

So, it is in our pack that we live or die at the moment.

We need a full compliment of 1st/2nd choice backs in each position. A top 3 player as 1st, a top 6 as second.

Here is where we stand 1st tier, 2nd tier, 3rd tier, 4th tier:

9. 1st NA, 2nd Dobby, 3rd Hooguard, 4th Porter and Woolstenholm
10. 1st NA 2nd Charlie, 3rd Jacob, 4th Miller
12. 1st + 2nd NA. 3rd Jimmy, 4th MLB. Mills AWOL.
13. 1st NA, 2nd Fekitoa, 3rd NA Spink and McHenry 4th
14. 1st NA, 2nd Odogwu, 3rd Kibrige, 4th Watson
11. 1st NA, 2nd Josh, 3rd Mehson
15. 1st Crossdale, 2nd NA, 3rd Minozzi

And we will see some of them leave this year (I hope). We have a BIG problem to solve in the backs. Bringing in a 12 and a 13 will not solve the issues at 9 and 10, nor on the wings.

[wasps]

You think dobby is a 2nd tier 9?
And that Charlie is a 2nd tier 10?


There's very few scrum halves better than Robson in England.
Are there any English 9's that you'd class as top tier?


Conversely, there's a lot of fly halves who are ahead of Charlie at the moment.
He has potential and time, so will hopefully improve and overtake some/most/all of the competition, but on current ability/performances, I just can't understand how he can be in the same tier as Robson (albeit different positions)

... And then crossdale as a top tier player?
I think he's our best full back, but I'm not sure the all blacks would be too concerned if they saw his name on an England team sheet.



Having said all that, I think I'd have miller ahead of minozzi at full back, or at least level... So maybe I have got a clue

[Shugs]

Robson and Fekitoa are tier 1 for me. There isn’t a team out there with all tier 1 so you’ve got to build a unit. Exeter do it with players like O’Flaherty. If we go into next season choosing a back three from Bassett, Kibirige, Crossdale, Miller, Mehson, Anderson, Bacon and Simonds I’m ok with that - maybe even adding Odogwu in. We really do need to try and sprinkle some stardust in at 12 or 13 to give us the differential there. You can argue about 10 and I think I share some of the reservations of others to some extent but it’s a done deal that we’ll go in with Umaga and Atkinson.

[backdoc]

At one moment in time, every player in the squad is at a different stage of their career in terms of development, achievement and decline.

And injuries make it all difficult to plan.

I can see Mills being given a year to prove himself. In which case the centre signing will be a replacement for Fekitoa.

At 9, if we don't use Hougaard [who will presumably be gone in June anyway], then we should get rid of either Porter or Wolstenholme and bring in a gritty Heinz like player. Monye is the next 9 with potential.

We can only have one player with potential in each position.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

I think Gops will get another year but mostly as a big game player, maybe coming off the bench when a bit of experience is needed. His secondary role will will be as kicking coach because either Jacob has to improve or we need someone to take place kicks.

I like the discussion on the centres and it shows that that it’s definitely our weakest area. It must be giving Lee a few sleepless nights because we aren’t going to be challenging top 4 until it’s sorted.

[mike909]

We do need players in the backs. However, we also need to decide how we'd like to set up. Most of the posts above, allude to that - but when we were at our best, we did look to have a second 5/8th within the backline, at 12 or 15. With Crossdale at 15 -  if he can be pushed towards a more distributor role, then we probably want a more robust 12 - with a "Daly-a-like" in the 13 shirt. That would set us up rather like Quins, but that is no bad thing.

Dan and Charlie/Jacob can work for now, but we also need to get some more speed at wing. Josh is a good winger, but our back three doesn't intimidate like it did with Wade and Varndell (say) when teams know that a turnover or slip meant points.

Assuming lots are leaving, then we probably need three centres and another winger. A fit Odogwu helps a lot and there are younger players moving through who need a gentle intro, not being dumped into the team if they can walk unaided....

Forwards fine - just need the chance to rotate more often. We really can't expect good results starting so many of the same players so often.

[Westy68]

1 would like to see 2 12’s come in, a 13 and a 9. 10 I find difficult, I’m not 100% confident with Charlie or Jacob at the moment. If I had to bet who would be the better 10 in the future, I would go for Charlie. But do we need a quality 10 now

Jacob can do some good stuff but has always got basic mistakes in him. If we bring in a 10 will that stop the progression of both players, is Charlie more a 15, therefore we need someone who pushes Jacob. Do we spend the money on the centres, which for me is a major problem for us. Not easy decisions to make