Wasps Recruitment Aims

[Shugs]

Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time  and will give us a chance of winning things.

+1

-1
Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.

Flip it round. When is the last time a “backs led” team won anything. I won’t take Quins as there win was hugely based on Marler/Collier/Louw. Quoting Saints being on for top 4 is laughable as a template - what about Tigers and Saracens - the pack led table toppers. Of course you also need quality backs but cliche or not if you don’t have stable set piece you don’t win often. As a matter of interest where would you have concentrated recruitment?

[Jac A]

-1
Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.

I disagree completely. Clichés are what they are but that doesn't discount all truth from them. I don't think anyone is claiming that Koch is 'the saviour of our game' just that adding a world-class player in a key position will improve the team which I don't think is too controversial.
Alo has had a good season and everyone has given him credit for the improvement to his game and fitness but I can't recall a game with him at TH where our scrum has dominated the opposition. Also, if you were to try and rank al the first choice tightheads in the Premiership, Alo would probably come out somewhere in the middle, whereas Koch would be most people's first or second choice. I'd suggest Alo is keen to fight for his place having signed a new contract and bringing in a world cup winner gives him the opportunity to compete with the best in training and improve even further.

I'd disagree that Quins have an average pack - or certainly front row - Marler and Collier are superb; they are the least penalised and by virtually every measure one of the best two scrummaging teams in the league. Saints pack I'd agree but that's one team who might get in the top 4. The teams who have been dominant and won the Premiership have almost always had strong packs and front-rows. Exeter and Saracens have used the strength of their pack to win (plus Tigers this year and previously) and teams with flair backs and weaker packs like us in 2017, Bath in 2015, Bristol last year have come close but not been able to win the thing. Us reaching the final in 2020 was as much Brooks and West with Willis, Young, Launch, Rowlands etc as it was our backs.

I don't think that by signing Koch and Ryan we are going to win the Premiership next year - partly as there are some other very good teams in a very tight league who are also evolving and strengthening - but I do think that we will improve on this year. We haven't had a top TH at the club probably since Vickery - so 12 years now. Brookes improved our scrum loads and he was a good player for us but he isn't as good as Koch (Brooke's last game for example was replacement loosehead for Toulon as they lost to Biarritz).

[baldpaul101]

Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.

Not even sure where to start with that post.
no one on this thread is suggesting that one prop, on his own will change Wasps fortunes.
Nor has anyone said Alo isn't decent, although you would have to doubt he's as good as a multiple capped springbok & world cup winner....
Quins do NOT have an average pack & probably have, in Marler & Collier have one of the best scrummaging prop combos in the league.
Yes, Wasps reached two recent finals, and lost them both, to a side with a large & dominant pack.

Not really sure why you need to pounce on any slightly positive post and pour derision & negativity on it, but each to their own. I wouldn't want you to stop doing something you clearly enjoy so much 

Whilst I was typing this Jac A has posted a much more detailed comment than I can be bothered to do. Many thanks

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Every time I read that we need forward dominance to win I remember sitting at the Ricoh as it was then watching our forwards being driven backwards as quickly as our backs went forwards when we stuffed Toulon.

Good props are always welcome, but what we need is a decent game plan that plays to our strengths, and the ability and commitment to carrying through with it

It pains me to say it as an ex forward, but Wasps have always been a loose play, back flair type of team. The idea of us grinding forwards inch by inch the way Chiefs did a few years ago does not fill me with joy.

[Beasties]

Yes, everyone knows a dominant forward pack wins you things. Therefore we should be pleased that’s where Blackett is heading. Not many front rows will live with a first up propping duo of West and Koch. It will be genuinely strange to go into games expecting to boss scrum time  and will give us a chance of winning things.

+1

-1
Forwards win, backs by how much..The statement is as old and cliché as it get's. The notion that Koch, as good as he is, is the savior of our game is as ludicrous as it is naïve and a disservice to Ayo, who is clearly now tagged a weak link having been lauded only yesterday.
Saints have a terrible pack and look on for top 4, Quins have an average one..we reached recent finals through back play, not forward play..so pick the bones out of that.
Without sufficiently strengthening the area's that are genuinely weak, forwards will improve your game, the backs will decide how much we lose by.
Blackett still not seeing the wood for the tree's IMO.

Strange post to start with as the "forwards win….." quote wasn’t even in there. Maybe you were responding to someone else?

As for my +1, it was in full agreement with the idea that as a Wasps fan it will be extremely weird going into games expecting our scrum to NOT be under pressure almost all the time. Alo is a decent scrummager at last, but there’s a drop-off after him. It’s not long ago we had a poor Alo and an awful version of JTA. Both are better but how anyone can’t see that adding Koch and Ryan will improve this aspect of our game is beyond me. That is amazing quality AND depth. I’m not sure anyone has claimed anything else.

[Shugs]

Every time I read that we need forward dominance to win I remember sitting at the Ricoh as it was then watching our forwards being driven backwards as quickly as our backs went forwards when we stuffed Toulon.

Good props are always welcome, but what we need is a decent game plan that plays to our strengths, and the ability and commitment to carrying through with it

It pains me to say it as an ex forward, but Wasps have always been a loose play, back flair type of team. The idea of us grinding forwards inch by inch the way Chiefs did a few years ago does not fill me with joy.
[/quote But Toulon simply didn’t turn up that night. We played well but since we’ve lost endless games to pack based teams. Just because we’ve signed Koch and Ryan doesn’t mean we’ll become Chiefs. It just makes us more competitive. I’m amazed there is so much opposition to signing two very good props. We need to move away from being the losers who score sensational tries.

[Heathen]

The recent law changes have somewhat changed the status quo WRT the Chiefs style of play. They were boring with 5m scrums ad infinitum. But that has gone and ball held up is a drop out to the defending team. The rolling maul - IF REFFED properly - is an impressive sight and an important attacking weapon.

For me, a team that can adapt to Plan A, B,  or C depending on how the opposition are playing, is a well balnced team and will win far more often than it loses. This is what Wasps have lacked in recent times. Lee has clearly identified this and is recruiting appropriately so that we can win whatever the strengths of the opposition.

[Chunky24]

It will certainly be Lee's squad / team / style next season rather than a bit of a legacy as he has had a sustained period of his own recruitment now. Interesting that as a former back his priority has been recruiting a solid competitive pack whereas previously mentioned Dai as a former forward had a galaxy of star backs and not so much of a forward pack.

[Beasties]

The recent law changes have somewhat changed the status quo WRT the Chiefs style of play. They were boring with 5m scrums ad infinitum. But that has gone and ball held up is a drop out to the defending team. The rolling maul - IF REFFED properly - is an impressive sight and an important attacking weapon.

For me, a team that can adapt to Plan A, B,  or C depending on how the opposition are playing, is a well balnced team and will win far more often than it loses. This is what Wasps have lacked in recent times. Lee has clearly identified this and is recruiting appropriately so that we can win whatever the strengths of the opposition.

"Identified" aaaarrgghh!!! I hate Brian O’Driscoll for making this a word that’s used constantly in rugby.

[HDAWG]

It will certainly be Lee's squad / team / style next season rather than a bit of a legacy as he has had a sustained period of his own recruitment now. Interesting that as a former back his priority has been recruiting a solid competitive pack whereas previously mentioned Dai as a former forward had a galaxy of star backs and not so much of a forward pack.

+1, it's bizarre Lee has a clear emphasis on forwards. I'd argue this is Blaze's influence more than Lee's.

[wasps]

As a "backs" coach, maybe Lee feels the need to recruit forwards, but feels he can make backs better through coaching

[Brandnewtorugby]

There was me thinking that the backs are starting to look exciting again.

[mike909]

A general rugby comment - but one that I have made about Jones' recent failures with England - is that someone, somewhere within a team needs to be making net gains, ball in hand, and that can be from both strength allied to offloading (to precis) or from pace and/or mazy runners.

Why England were poor - in the main - is that they seemed surprised that a team denuded of the fwds that did those gains and without their experienced, pacy wingers wasn't looking like it could win games.

So what about Wasps...Well, I'd guess the focus is to be as competitive, up front, within the set piece like we are in the wider channels. And make sure we have options. Ball in hand up front we have the resources - both Willis' and Barbeary and Carr. So if what we are doing is making sure we are as good in the set piece as in the loose then fine.

Given parity/slight advantage - our backs are likely to have more good games - and the coaches may have decided that there is better value in investing up front, and in those area where we've been a little less competitive, before looking too much at the backs line up.

[Shugs]

Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head Mike. Any team needs a weapon that gets it across the gain line. Our forward additions give us more of that alongside Barbeary and a couple of others. I suspect Odogwu will be seen a lot at 13 next year. With him there and Umaga at 15 we will hopefully have two backs who frequently break the line as well. In theory it looks like it could work.

[Heathen]

Given the RP rumour that two clubs are showing interest in Cardall, we should get him on a new contract PDQ.