Always a Wasp

Author Topic: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch  (Read 25167 times)

TheTameWasp

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #165 on: August 15, 2022, 06:52:26 PM »
CCFC want Wasps to spend £500k with zero money from CCFC (maybe a small a loan) to lay a pitch that will tear up like a carpet the moment a rugby match is played. At which point CCFC demand Wasps pay to lay another new pitch at a cost of £500k.  Repeat the process 16 times for the 16 home rugby matches and Wasps have spent £8M keeping CCFC happy. And they'll still find something to complain about.
Is this a SISU plan to bankrupt Wasps? 🤔

SISU have nothing to do with the state the pitch is in.

CCFC rent a stadium and expect a playable pitch, sadly it's unplayable so I'm pretty sure Wasps will be in breach of contract.

Whichever way you dress this up, I'm afraid this is all Wasps fault.

MarleyWasp

  • Guest
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #166 on: August 15, 2022, 06:58:29 PM »
I think one understated area where Wasps are in desperate need of improvement is in the PR department.

Ali Donnelly and Mel Platt were absolutely brilliant at their jobs and the way Wasps fans engaged with the club in the struggles throughout 2011/12 was testament to how good ally and her team were. Mel Platt did a very good job when she joined the club and had a really good level of control on the media.

I have nothing against Paul Smith. He's a top bloke who I got to know well. I wrote a few blogs for him when he was at the Coventry Telegraph and fact checked a few bits for the club website when he joined the club. However I don't think he had anywhere near the control with the media and that's when the tide started to turn. I don't think he appreciated how demanding the role would be either. He did contact me before he left to say he was leaving, although in hindsight I'm not overly convinced he told me the full story as to why.

His replacement, Tom Value, didn't convince me at all to be honest, and it was around this time that things started to change.

(SBSam may disagree with me here...)

Sisu/CCFC really got their act together in terms of what they told the media and supporters and how things were worded. That in turn helped persuade fans who had previously been against them that they had changed.

The problem was, they did exactly what they agreed not to knowing full well it would lead to a breakdown in contract negotiations to extend their deal at the Arena. They didn't really change; they just spun it in a way that made it look like they had.

Personally I don't think they really had any desire to return after a year at Birmingham City as they were doing so well in the PR war and still had time to milk it. With restrictions on crowd size they had not a lot to lose.

Vale left during the first lockdown and Chris Kerr stepped up into a role he wasn't really suited for, and not only that had to do the role for three clubs (Wasps Men, Women and Netball). He left earlier in the year, but nobody seems to know who has replaced him.

We're now on a hiding to nothing in the PR battle and regardless of whether the club speak out or keep quiet, they're on for a hiding.

CCFC were told that no new pitch would be laid in May or June, depending on who you choose to believe. David Boddy hasn't said that CCFC objected at the time, something I think that had they done so he'd be quick to point out.

My question is this: did they not object at the time knowing the impact the Sevens would have on the pitch, as they saw it as an opportunity for another PR battle to put further pressure on Wasps?

bigad82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #167 on: August 15, 2022, 07:19:08 PM »
CCFC want Wasps to spend £500k with zero money from CCFC (maybe a small a loan) to lay a pitch that will tear up like a carpet the moment a rugby match is played. At which point CCFC demand Wasps pay to lay another new pitch at a cost of £500k.  Repeat the process 16 times for the 16 home rugby matches and Wasps have spent £8M keeping CCFC happy. And they'll still find something to complain about.
Is this a SISU plan to bankrupt Wasps? 🤔

SISU have nothing to do with the state the pitch is in.

CCFC rent a stadium and expect a playable pitch, sadly it's unplayable so I'm pretty sure Wasps will be in breach of contract.

Whichever way you dress this up, I'm afraid this is all Wasps fault.
They were told 3 months ago the pitch was not going to be relaid.Its a bit late to be crying about it now.

Come on Dai Young

  • Guest
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #168 on: August 15, 2022, 07:29:12 PM »
I think one understated area where Wasps are in desperate need of improvement is in the PR department.

Simon Gilbert concurs: https://twitter.com/TheSimonGilbert/status/1559207893299302403

SBSam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #169 on: August 15, 2022, 08:02:02 PM »
I think one understated area where Wasps are in desperate need of improvement is in the PR department.

Ali Donnelly and Mel Platt were absolutely brilliant at their jobs and the way Wasps fans engaged with the club in the struggles throughout 2011/12 was testament to how good ally and her team were. Mel Platt did a very good job when she joined the club and had a really good level of control on the media.

I have nothing against Paul Smith. He's a top bloke who I got to know well. I wrote a few blogs for him when he was at the Coventry Telegraph and fact checked a few bits for the club website when he joined the club. However I don't think he had anywhere near the control with the media and that's when the tide started to turn. I don't think he appreciated how demanding the role would be either. He did contact me before he left to say he was leaving, although in hindsight I'm not overly convinced he told me the full story as to why.

His replacement, Tom Value, didn't convince me at all to be honest, and it was around this time that things started to change.

(SBSam may disagree with me here...)

Sisu/CCFC really got their act together in terms of what they told the media and supporters and how things were worded. That in turn helped persuade fans who had previously been against them that they had changed.

The problem was, they did exactly what they agreed not to knowing full well it would lead to a breakdown in contract negotiations to extend their deal at the Arena. They didn't really change; they just spun it in a way that made it look like they had.

Personally I don't think they really had any desire to return after a year at Birmingham City as they were doing so well in the PR war and still had time to milk it. With restrictions on crowd size they had not a lot to lose.

Vale left during the first lockdown and Chris Kerr stepped up into a role he wasn't really suited for, and not only that had to do the role for three clubs (Wasps Men, Women and Netball). He left earlier in the year, but nobody seems to know who has replaced him.

We're now on a hiding to nothing in the PR battle and regardless of whether the club speak out or keep quiet, they're on for a hiding.

CCFC were told that no new pitch would be laid in May or June, depending on who you choose to believe. David Boddy hasn't said that CCFC objected at the time, something I think that had they done so he'd be quick to point out.

My question is this: did they not object at the time knowing the impact the Sevens would have on the pitch, as they saw it as an opportunity for another PR battle to put further pressure on Wasps?

Relationships with Sky Blue fans have improved since

Various SISU people with odd ideas left, leaving Joy Seppala more hands on and becoming far more visible.
Appointment of Dave Boddy, not everyone’s favourite and describes as a SISU puppet - but then he is an employee.
Subsequent to all of the above Tim Fisher taking a huge step back
Appointment of Robins and Viveash leading to the development of a very attractive playing style.
The above leading to promotions and annual progression on the pitch
The above leading to the best relationship I have seen between team management, players and supporters for a very long time.

The atmosphere at the arena was fantastic last season, hardly any moaning and groaning just total support.

All this leading to modern era record season ticket sales of 13,500 which I would imagine Wasps can only dream of.

In relation to the move to Birmingham, I think less blame is attached to SISU. No doubt it was spun well, but indemnifying against any future legal action would have left CCFC with little recourse in the current situation.

The return - I enjoyed the time at Birmingham, definitely a bit of a siege mentality. In my view, hatchets were buried on the Ricoh (rapidly CBS Arena) return. The return suited both clubs, additional revenue and increased asset value for Wasps (including greater value in stadium naming rights) and obviously increased revenue for CCFC.

Of course, the additional revenue to Wasps (rent And IEC) was not just a contribution to overheads: there was always going to be the additional cost of maintaining a pitch suitable for both sports and would have(certainly should have) been built into the rent. The fact that Wasps seem to have reneged / abrogated their responsibilities is not playing well in PR terms as you have said. I thinks it will be very difficult for Wasps to redeem themselves in that regard.

Who knows what the content of the discussion about the new pitch not being installed was. I get the impression, including from the very beginning of this thread, that a 7s tournament would not have been expected to cause so much damage to a well maintained playing surface. The concerts will not have helped. Fundamentally I think Wasps have over reached and are in dire straits financially and in a very difficult place reputationally.

Sorry about length of post.

SBSam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #170 on: August 15, 2022, 08:04:41 PM »
CCFC want Wasps to spend £500k with zero money from CCFC (maybe a small a loan) to lay a pitch that will tear up like a carpet the moment a rugby match is played. At which point CCFC demand Wasps pay to lay another new pitch at a cost of £500k.  Repeat the process 16 times for the 16 home rugby matches and Wasps have spent £8M keeping CCFC happy. And they'll still find something to complain about.
Is this a SISU plan to bankrupt Wasps? 🤔

Do we know that a lay and play pitch can’t be provided to meet the needs of both sports? Wasps need to provide a safe surface for CCFC, and Wasps are quite capable of bankrupting themselves without any help from CCFC.

bigad82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #171 on: August 15, 2022, 08:43:11 PM »
CCFC want Wasps to spend £500k with zero money from CCFC (maybe a small a loan) to lay a pitch that will tear up like a carpet the moment a rugby match is played. At which point CCFC demand Wasps pay to lay another new pitch at a cost of £500k.  Repeat the process 16 times for the 16 home rugby matches and Wasps have spent £8M keeping CCFC happy. And they'll still find something to complain about.
Is this a SISU plan to bankrupt Wasps? 🤔

Do we know that a lay and play pitch can’t be provided to meet the needs of both sports? Wasps need to provide a safe surface for CCFC, and Wasps are quite capable of bankrupting themselves without any help from CCFC.
We only have the EFL telling us the pitch is dangerous.Who told CCFC to play the game on that date?
That's right the EFL who knew the CWG had the stadium for as long as they did.
Sky Blues fans have been telling us how crap the EFL have been for the last 10 years.
Are you another one who has done a 360 when it comes to the EFL?

SBSam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #172 on: August 15, 2022, 09:15:53 PM »
CCFC want Wasps to spend £500k with zero money from CCFC (maybe a small a loan) to lay a pitch that will tear up like a carpet the moment a rugby match is played. At which point CCFC demand Wasps pay to lay another new pitch at a cost of £500k.  Repeat the process 16 times for the 16 home rugby matches and Wasps have spent £8M keeping CCFC happy. And they'll still find something to complain about.
Is this a SISU plan to bankrupt Wasps? 🤔

Do we know that a lay and play pitch can’t be provided to meet the needs of both sports? Wasps need to provide a safe surface for CCFC, and Wasps are quite capable of bankrupting themselves without any help from CCFC.
We only have the EFL telling us the pitch is dangerous.Who told CCFC to play the game on that date?
That's right the EFL who knew the CWG had the stadium for as long as they did.
Sky Blues fans have been telling us how crap the EFL have been for the last 10 years.
Are you another one who has done a 360 when it comes to the EFL?

We have an independent agronomist, paid for by the EFL and agreed by Wasps, telling us the pitch is unsafe. Did the EFL know the detail as of the agreement between Wasps and CWG - I don’t know and I suspect neither do you.
I have never expressed a view on the EFL who have been as tolerant of CCFCs nomadic existence as the RFU and Premiership Rugby have been of Wasps tour of England. So no, I haven’t done a 360.

bigad82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #173 on: August 15, 2022, 10:12:06 PM »
CCFC want Wasps to spend £500k with zero money from CCFC (maybe a small a loan) to lay a pitch that will tear up like a carpet the moment a rugby match is played. At which point CCFC demand Wasps pay to lay another new pitch at a cost of £500k.  Repeat the process 16 times for the 16 home rugby matches and Wasps have spent £8M keeping CCFC happy. And they'll still find something to complain about.
Is this a SISU plan to bankrupt Wasps? 🤔

Do we know that a lay and play pitch can’t be provided to meet the needs of both sports? Wasps need to provide a safe surface for CCFC, and Wasps are quite capable of bankrupting themselves without any help from CCFC.
We only have the EFL telling us the pitch is dangerous.Who told CCFC to play the game on that date?
That's right the EFL who knew the CWG had the stadium for as long as they did.
Sky Blues fans have been telling us how crap the EFL have been for the last 10 years.
Are you another one who has done a 360 when it comes to the EFL?

We have an independent agronomist, paid for by the EFL and agreed by Wasps, telling us the pitch is unsafe. Did the EFL know the detail as of the agreement between Wasps and CWG - I don’t know and I suspect neither do you.
I have never expressed a view on the EFL who have been as tolerant of CCFCs nomadic existence as the RFU and Premiership Rugby have been of Wasps tour of England. So no, I haven’t done a 360.
How do you know it was agreed with Wasps?
The EFL were close to kicking them out of the league they have hardly been tolerant.
You haven't expressed a view on the EFL because we all know there is where the blame lies for much of this.
This has been nothing more than a willy waving exercise by the EFL.
They have used CCFC supporters, unfortunately most don't seem cleaver enough to see it.



Come on Dai Young

  • Guest
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #174 on: August 15, 2022, 10:15:29 PM »
How do you know it was agreed with Wasps?

From Vaughan's statement last week:

Quote
We have agreed that an independent agronomist selected by the EFL can come to the Arena and carry out their own inspection of the pitch. We hope they feel it is able to be played on and I know, as professionals, they are aware and understand the circumstances surrounding the pitch recently.

Edited to add:

They have used CCFC supporters, unfortunately most don't seem cleaver enough to see it.

If you're going to denigrate the intelligence of others, at least spell the word "clever" correctly  ;D (Oh, and "a 360" would be a complete circle - you meant "a 180.")
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 10:21:25 PM by Come on Dai Young »

Marlow Nick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #175 on: August 15, 2022, 10:18:43 PM »
Sadly Wasps management are realising too late that CCFC are not good value as tenants.  I strongly suspect they are paying way less than the likely cost of maintaining the pitch to the standard they demand. Anything less than about £5m a year in either rent, maintenence fees or f&b will not be enough.
Hopefully we can find a way to get out of this contract and send CCFC packing or alternatively get CCFC to pay a high enough rent to cover the true costs (plus profit margin) otherwise the next 10 years will be endless disputes
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 10:23:30 PM by Marlow Nick »

WonkyWasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5919
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #176 on: August 15, 2022, 10:24:14 PM »
Leopards don't change their spots.

SBSam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #177 on: August 15, 2022, 11:12:10 PM »
Sadly Wasps management are realising too late that CCFC are not good value as tenants.  I strongly suspect they are paying way less than the likely cost of maintaining the pitch to the standard they demand. Anything less than about £5m a year in either rent, maintenence fees or f&b will not be enough.
Hopefully we can find a way to get out of this contract and send CCFC packing or alternatively get CCFC to pay a high enough rent to cover the true costs (plus profit margin) otherwise the next 10 years will be endless disputes

You won’t get £5m a year in rent from CCFC or anybody, way way beyond market rate for an arena in in poor condition
If you don’t have a sub tenant asset value of arena will probably further decrease = even less chance of refinancing,
My personal view is that without CCFC the CBS will not be happy about the sponsorship arrangement. Others on this site will take a different view of equal validity.
Sending CCFC packing would be a PR disaster.
Sending CCFC packing could have some, almost certainly negative, influence on bondholders view of Wasps as an investment

In summary, be careful what you wish for.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 11:33:07 PM by SBSam »

SBSam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #178 on: August 15, 2022, 11:13:33 PM »
How do you know it was agreed with Wasps?

From Vaughan's statement last week:

Quote
We have agreed that an independent agronomist selected by the EFL can come to the Arena and carry out their own inspection of the pitch. We hope they feel it is able to be played on and I know, as professionals, they are aware and understand the circumstances surrounding the pitch recently.

Edited to add:

They have used CCFC supporters, unfortunately most don't seem cleaver enough to see it.

If you're going to denigrate the intelligence of others, at least spell the word "clever" correctly  ;D (Oh, and "a 360" would be a complete circle - you meant "a 180.")
Well spotted about the 360, I missed that and hence made the same schoolboy error.

SBSam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Commonwealth 7s - Pitch
« Reply #179 on: August 15, 2022, 11:15:40 PM »
Leopards don't change their spots.

Odd that CCFC have had no problems with Northampton or Birmingham as landlords or with Wasps this time until they dropped the ball over the pitch.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 11:35:26 PM by SBSam »