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Author Topic: Eddie Jones  (Read 3816 times)

Heathen

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2022, 12:03:15 PM »
The problem lies with Eddie Jones, not private schools
Any perceived issues with England players’ behaviour are more likely down to the Australian’s own shortcomings in coaching them
Owen Slot
, Chief Sports Writer
Tuesday August 09 2022, 6.00pm BST, The Times


Predictably enough, Eddie Jones’s latest critique of England and the type of athlete that its society breeds has put a lot of backs up. It is predictable enough because Jones has relentlessly picked away at the nation that has employed him and the society he has found here for the past 6½ years. He has done it in camp with the players who represent England, he has done it in his own autobiography and he has now done it again in a recent interview.

He is, of course, entitled to his opinions, and he wouldn’t be alone in finding fault with the nation right now, though his employers at the RFU, presumably rolling their eyes with a “here we go again”, made it clear that they would rather he kept those opinions to himself.

His latest criticism of the private education system in this country is intriguing, in part because that is how he chose to educate his own daughter. In his period coaching Saracens in the 2000s, she spent two years at Haileybury College, the same school that produced the England players Jamie George and Nick Isiekwe.

His suggestion that the English public schools do not produce alumni with resilience or leadership qualities is perplexing in part because his present England players are as diverse as the national team have ever been and also because the RFU has made huge efforts to shift a sport, that has its roots in the private schools, into the state sector.

And is he saying that only English private schools are at fault? Because probably the most successful pathway system for young rugby players anywhere in the world right now is Ireland’s and that is heavily rooted in the Dublin private schools. Vast numbers of Springboks come through South Africa’s private schools; indeed, in his native Australia, especially Sydney, many players come through the private education sector too.


To generalise about types of players, their behaviours and their backgrounds in this way is simply lazy and inconsiderate. It points more to the body of evidence that suggests that Jones just doesn’t have any depth of affection for his adopted nation.

As one coach who was formerly on his England staff put it: “I always felt there was a slight hatred [for] the English.” Maybe that can be put down, in part, to his interminable warring with the media, his impatience with having to be accountable to the RFU (yes, accountable to his employers — hardly an original concept) and his frustration at the system that he has to work with.
Jones was rebuked by the RFU after claiming that English rugby should “blow up” the public school system


However, insiders will tell you that he was picking away at Englishness and English society from the time of his arrival. In his autobiography, he writes: “I’ve never lived in a country with the cultural and class difference of England . . . The English and the Japanese are very similar in that there is always a facade of politeness to their interactions . . . They both love to bitch about everyone around them.”

However, back to the rugby field. In Jones’s recent, now infamous interview with The i newspaper, he says that, when the going gets tough on the field, English players lack resilience and struggle for adequate leadership. This is an issue that Jones has been battling ever since he took the reins with England nearly seven years ago.


It does seem extraordinary that Jones is blaming the perceived faults in his players on the schools that they left, on average, ten years ago — especially when he gets to spend three months-plus with them every year. A lot of these players have been with him now for seven seasons, three months a year. Even if there really were a problem with their education, is that really not sufficient time to re-educate, to re-coach them, to have flourish in them the kind of mindset that he believes that they need?

Most coaches and educationalists will tell you that players’ or students’ behaviours are a reflection of their environment. Players adapt to their environment and they tend to do so fast; it is a kind of human instinct. It is no different in other sports, indeed in all human environments.

mike909

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2022, 12:13:58 PM »
Hi Mike909, agree with some of what you say, but I think we have to accept that leadership and management are different qualities.

As for what works for you, see my earlier comments, about knowing your own strengths as well as knowing your audience. I think being exposed to adversity regularly can help in a rugby context, much as it does in a military environment.

The military aim exercises and training to simulate battle stress as much as possible to harden personnel to those effects, one such example being one of the leadership courses we do, the participants do an all night orienteering course then on return, instead of getting their head down, they are put through a day of practical leadership tasks. Not the same as being shot at, but focussing the mind and body when tired and hungry does produce stress hormones and get people used to (or not as the case may be) operating under those conditions.

Hi M22. I'm familiar with the military angle - I have family involved and I know they valued their leadership training. I'd accept there is a difference between management and leadership, especially in many military contexts. That said - even the most jeopardy in a rugby game is still a long way from being shot at! And it is more and more a matter of communicating with officials and team. And being able to make decisions as both player (fly half say) and as captain. Motivating the team  seems more a coaching thing these days. It seem these days that more and more decisions are communicated onto the pitch by the coaching team doing real time analysis. So there are various threads for me around being a Captain at rugby that have to come together. 

As a person manager in my best sport - I'd confer with the bowler (say) and hope that what I called person management gave them the confidence to perform. And that's where I believe person management is vital in rugby as in any team sport.

Now leadership under fire....I'd want to have been on one of your courses. That said, my map reading is shit at the best of times....

Peej

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2022, 12:17:00 PM »
Honestly, I think the issue is with academies and pro deals (on the back of the vast majority coming out of private schools), many of the players just don't have life experience. They play the way they're coached, and don't have the same level of individual perspective and thinking - or the opportunity to express it - that players in the amateur era and early professionalism did. It's not the current crop's fault, it's just a product of the system where everything is so high pressured and tightly controlled, very much a 'it's my way or fuck off' approach.

mike909

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2022, 12:25:00 PM »
The problem lies with Eddie Jones, not private schools
Any perceived issues with England players’ behaviour are more likely down to the Australian’s own shortcomings in coaching them
Owen Slot
, Chief Sports Writer
Tuesday August 09 2022, 6.00pm BST, The Times


Predictably enough, Eddie Jones’s latest critique of England and the type of athlete that its society breeds has put a lot of backs up. It is predictable enough because Jones has relentlessly picked away at the nation that has employed him and the society he has found here for the past 6½ years. He has done it in camp with the players who represent England, he has done it in his own autobiography and he has now done it again in a recent interview.

However, back to the rugby field. In Jones’s recent, now infamous interview with The i newspaper, he says that, when the going gets tough on the field, English players lack resilience and struggle for adequate leadership. This is an issue that Jones has been battling ever since he took the reins with England nearly seven years ago.


It does seem extraordinary that Jones is blaming the perceived faults in his players on the schools that they left, on average, ten years ago — especially when he gets to spend three months-plus with them every year. A lot of these players have been with him now for seven seasons, three months a year. Even if there really were a problem with their education, is that really not sufficient time to re-educate, to re-coach them, to have flourish in them the kind of mindset that he believes that they need?


I think the writer has a point. My view - and from having read the various critiques of Jones' management "skills" - is that Jones seems to both want to take away on field decision making so that the team does what he wants (that's any team not just England) but also wants them to be flexible on field. And it seems that players don't like/fear going off script. Blimey - Fiver probably saved his job with England in 2018 in SA going off script and never played again.....

I was never clear (nothing new there...) if last 6Ns was some sort of RWC prep - but I watched back the Scotland game a while back and England just kept doing the same thing again and again, (running into Scottish tacklers) without any/much thought of changing tactics...I remember I was hoping we'd lose in the end as it was just so drab and lacking in thought...

Rossm

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2022, 01:13:25 PM »
It's really quite simple. Jones knows he's failing and is extremely unlikely to win the WC. He'll blame anybody or anything rather than admit responsibility. A bit like Trump in many ways.
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Peej

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2022, 01:14:27 PM »
The problem lies with Eddie Jones, not private schools
Any perceived issues with England players’ behaviour are more likely down to the Australian’s own shortcomings in coaching them
Owen Slot
, Chief Sports Writer
Tuesday August 09 2022, 6.00pm BST, The Times


Predictably enough, Eddie Jones’s latest critique of England and the type of athlete that its society breeds has put a lot of backs up. It is predictable enough because Jones has relentlessly picked away at the nation that has employed him and the society he has found here for the past 6½ years. He has done it in camp with the players who represent England, he has done it in his own autobiography and he has now done it again in a recent interview.

However, back to the rugby field. In Jones’s recent, now infamous interview with The i newspaper, he says that, when the going gets tough on the field, English players lack resilience and struggle for adequate leadership. This is an issue that Jones has been battling ever since he took the reins with England nearly seven years ago.


It does seem extraordinary that Jones is blaming the perceived faults in his players on the schools that they left, on average, ten years ago — especially when he gets to spend three months-plus with them every year. A lot of these players have been with him now for seven seasons, three months a year. Even if there really were a problem with their education, is that really not sufficient time to re-educate, to re-coach them, to have flourish in them the kind of mindset that he believes that they need?


I think the writer has a point. My view - and from having read the various critiques of Jones' management "skills" - is that Jones seems to both want to take away on field decision making so that the team does what he wants (that's any team not just England) but also wants them to be flexible on field. And it seems that players don't like/fear going off script. Blimey - Fiver probably saved his job with England in 2018 in SA going off script and never played again.....

I was never clear (nothing new there...) if last 6Ns was some sort of RWC prep - but I watched back the Scotland game a while back and England just kept doing the same thing again and again, (running into Scottish tacklers) without any/much thought of changing tactics...I remember I was hoping we'd lose in the end as it was just so drab and lacking in thought...

I always wonder if the players know it's stupid, but are paralysed from trying something different, or if they can't appreciate it and can't do anything different because they haven't trained for it and can't envision how. A mix of the two, I imagine

wasps

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2022, 01:42:07 PM »



Jones has never got over 2003.
I sometimes feel that he's causing us to fail on purpose to make up for it.




So much of sport is mental. Players play better when they're enjoying themselves. It can be seen all the time.
No one is enjoying it at the moment and it shows

westwaleswasp

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2022, 08:20:54 PM »
It is really simple. Jones is a third rate bully boy human being, a second rate international coach, and only backed in public by the James Haskells of this world, who whilst being a ebullient, gregarious likable bloke who is often necessary for any team, is also a first rate tool who opens his mouth before he thinks, much like Jones himself.
The sensible people in the media had Jones' number years ago.
He will get to the semis or final, unless England are cataclymsically bad.  He may even get lucky and win it. None of the purgatory we have suffered these past two years will make it worthwhile. None. Partly because it is not necessary to win a WC. Constant bull, constant obfuscation, constant noise like a rugby Trump- a great comparison- constant need for aggro and the enemy.
 

There is talk of him going to manage the Aussies again. Needless to say, many would be delighted.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 08:22:46 PM by westwaleswasp »

Wiltshire Wasp

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2022, 08:39:37 AM »
No one is enjoying it at the moment and it shows

I agree with that so much and it is such a shame.
“In a world full of Kardashians be an Audrey”.

Rossm

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2022, 08:58:43 AM »
Eddie Jones' crazy attack on private schools shows he doesn't get English rugby

Oliver Brown in today's Daily Telegraph.

In any sensible regime, the head coach of England rugby would no sooner belittle independent schools than a Wimbledon executive would poke fun at Roger Federer. There are certain sacred cows that are simply not worth skewering. Eddie Jones, alas, is a man so wedded to his disruptive instincts, so heedless about alienating every constituency in the English game, that he has lost any trace of an emotional radar. His argument that the over-reliance on privately educated players needs to be “blown up” reflects somebody who, with just 14 months left on his Twickenham contract, is determined to burn the place down as he leaves.

For it is not just the Welsh, the Irish or the fourth estate – all past victims of Jones’ lacerating tongue – he has risked antagonising this time. It is the bulk of Twickenham’s matchday crowd. Run a rule across the 82,000 there on any given winter Saturday and a high proportion, if not a majority, will have attended fee-paying schools. In his book Among the Fans, Patrick Collins observed how, as recently as the Nineties, it was possible to construct a physical portrait of Twickenham Man: “Waxed jacket by Burberry, tweed hat by Dunn’s, shirt by Viyella, complexion by John Courage.”

Caricatures aside, these are the people whom Jones offends at his peril, England loyalists who over the past two years have started muttering about his inability to capitalise on the deepest talent pool in world rugby. The blame, Jones contends, lies with the school system. At Harrow, he says, you lead too “closeted” a life to develop the sharpest leadership skills on the field. This drew disdain from Barnaby Lenon, a former Harrow headmaster, who dismissed Jones’ remarks as a “whinge”. But it explains why Maro Itoje, an Old Harrovian and Jones’ most reliably talismanic player, has still not been entrusted with the captaincy.

For the Rugby Football Union to rebuke Jones publicly is a sign that they know he has crossed a line. They are acutely wary of any statements that might be construed as censure – indeed, it took two limp Six Nations before chief executive Bill Sweeney dipped a toe into the turbulent debate over his future. Here, the RFU confirmed Sweeney had spoken to Jones, reaffirming their faith in independent schools’ record of cultivating players. At a time when Henry Arundell, another Harrow alumnus, is being touted as a star of next year’s World Cup, they clearly do not need the figure in charge trashing the institution that nurtured him.

It is apt to ask exactly how Jones’ hostility to private schools has arisen. He might claim that the dependency on such schools is a peculiarly English obsession, mocking the priority to “play the game properly, old chap”. He insists that he is a true Australian meritocrat, that he cares only for what players can contribute to his team, not for their educational routes. But Australia has never been as class-blind as it likes to appear. One old saying in the country holds that in Melbourne, people always ask where you went to school, whereas in Sydney, they want to know how much your house is worth.

In Jones’ native Sydney, rugby union is disproportionately skewed towards the few expensive schools that still offer it to their pupils, in an era when league and Australian Rules dominate. This became a key element of the inquest into Australia’s dismal results against the All Blacks in 2016: why were only six of the Wallabies’ 23-man squad from state schools? Even England, for all Jones’ grumbling, now have 11.

So, the idea that his team are held back by a distinctively English structural failing will not wash. For Jones, you sense, sentiments on this issue run deeper, fuelled by a distaste for anything resembling privilege. Even at 62, he is still essentially that same little firebrand from the rough end of Sydney’s southern beaches, abhorring the notion of entitlement. Everything he achieved at Matraville High, a school not considered part of the city’s rugby fabric until he and the brilliant Ella brothers came along, was, he would later reflect, earned rather than handed to him on a plate.

All his life, he has scorned the silver spoon. He only thrived as deputy headmaster of an international school, he explained, because he had the gumption to forge his own path. As such, a suspicion of private schools has taken root. You can detect it as a running thread throughout his autobiography, My Life and Rugby. Of his first encounter with the independent St Joseph’s at Matraville, he betrays an inferiority complex, writing: “They exuded health, wealth, strength and an overpowering confidence. We looked like we were from the wrong side of the tracks.”

It helps illuminate why he feels such a profound affinity with Owen Farrell, his first choice as England captain. He first encountered him coaching Saracens, when Farrell was just 17, and the symmetries in their working-class upbringings brought an instant bond. Describing Farrell and his father Andy, he said: “They were different to many of the other players, who had enjoyed the privileges of the English private-school system.”

It is almost pathological, this preoccupation of his. A crucial aspect of leadership, which Jones claims private-school alumni so conspicuously lack, is emotional intelligence, the art of knowing your audience. In this job, though, it is a skill that eludes him. After 6 and a half years, the longest he has spent in any rugby post, he continues to find the English utterly perplexing.

By his own admission, he still does not understand the codes of politeness, or the habit of avoiding confrontation by miring everything in subtext. If Jones wants to tear a strip off somebody, he will do so without a backward glance. Once, such brashness was integral to his genius. Now, he is more of a one-man wrecking ball, ruffling feathers at every turn. Jones imagines, through his bracing critique of selective schools, that he is offering a vital state-of-the-nation address. But it comes across, with his usual absence of nuance, as inverted snobbery.
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backdoc

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2022, 09:01:44 AM »
"But it explains why Maro Itoje, an Old Harrovian and Jones’ most reliably talismanic player, has still not been entrusted with the captaincy"

I though it was because he is a bit of a knob.

WonkyWasp

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2022, 09:16:02 AM »
Billy was at Harrow too.  Don't know what that tells you tho'.

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2022, 09:41:12 AM »
My first degree was as a trainee P.E teacher (secondary and A-Level), and I have to admit when you see the facilities, expertise, time and teaching that can be extended to sports in public schools compared to state it really is striking. It is no wonder that historically that many players come from that background. However the work with state schools and grass roots clubs is there, and players can make it through both routes.

Eddie Jones has always been divisive, and his latest comments do not surprise me at all. I may not like or want him as our head coach as I feel he is the handbrake on our ability to develop into a consistently winning team with his mixed messages, befuddling tactics and autocratic approach, which has constricted the team  rather than letting them learn and flourish. But I can understand why he feels as he does. It is not only the background of where he grew up, but also that his parents, dad Australian, mother Japanese-American means that he has never quite felt like he "fits". When you get this disassociation this can lead to a bunker mentality, and you may view things more differently, and sometimes with hostility.

We all need to feel that we "belong", that we are accepted, that we have a connection. Rugby is Jones' constant, anything that may disrupt that will not be viewed kindly. If he does not feel "connected" to our country or culture, is it any surprise he views it as he does? The problem is that this is also felt by many of us, and why it can be very difficult for us not only to go with him in what he does, but makes supporting our team that little bit harder as we do not feel as connected with them as we should.

Lancaster is the blueprint of how to connect the team to the fans and create pride. Woodward (01-03) showed the blueprint of how to develop a team of leaders who could think and adjust to the challenges on the pitch whilst the coaches created the environment off it. We need to find a future coach who is the best of both of these. My request would be Shaun Edwards.

WonkyWasp

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2022, 09:47:48 AM »
Shaun to Wasps first please.

matelot22

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Re: Eddie Jones
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2022, 10:02:46 AM »
Hi M22. I'm familiar with the military angle - I have family involved and I know they valued their leadership training. I'd accept there is a difference between management and leadership, especially in many military contexts. That said - even the most jeopardy in a rugby game is still a long way from being shot at! And it is more and more a matter of communicating with officials and team. And being able to make decisions as both player (fly half say) and as captain. Motivating the team  seems more a coaching thing these days. It seem these days that more and more decisions are communicated onto the pitch by the coaching team doing real time analysis. So there are various threads for me around being a Captain at rugby that have to come together. 

As a person manager in my best sport - I'd confer with the bowler (say) and hope that what I called person management gave them the confidence to perform. And that's where I believe person management is vital in rugby as in any team sport.

Now leadership under fire....I'd want to have been on one of your courses. That said, my map reading is shit at the best of times....

Agree with much of what you say again, but I also think your post highlights my point about the difference between leader and manager. Eddie is very much the manager, but we lack on field leaders. My gut reaction is that that is Eddie's fault as he is too controlling, as many of us have observed, he simply oppresses natural expression and wants to be the sole decision maker in the entire set up.