Wasps facing relegation

[Shugs]

Scratching around for anything that could be remotely positive - Michael van Vuuren on twitter seems to be indicating light at the end of the tunnel. Not sure if that’s personal or Wasps based.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries

Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....

Oh yes ...

[Bloke in North Dorset]

The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries

Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....

The problem with having sugar daddies is that if they get bored you're in trouble if the underlying asset doesn't perform as as a stand alone financial asset.

[wasps]

The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries

Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....

The problem with having sugar daddies is that if they get bored you're in trouble if the underlying asset doesn't perform as as a stand alone financial asset.

I know I'm stating the obvious, but professional sport doesn't work without sugar daddies.


Not just rugby, but sport in general

[Rossm]

The only teams I am reasonably sure have deep enough pockets are Bristol and Sarries

Wouldn't you also include Bath in that? Bruce Craig is worth £300 million apparently.....

The problem with having sugar daddies is that if they get bored you're in trouble if the underlying asset doesn't perform as as a stand alone financial asset.

Another problem is if they die. Mike Gooley, Ealing Trailfinders, is 86 and his descendants have no interest in rugby. So if they get into the Prem, then another financial disaster waiting to happen.

[JF]

Club rugby has to be self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.

[baldpaul101]

Another problem is if they die.

Wasn't that where Warriors problems started, when Cecil Duckworth died?

[DGP Wasp]

Out of interest, does anyone know how the finances work in Ireland?  The provincial sides as far as I know are not bankrolled by wealthy individuals.  Ireland players are centrally contracted and their game time carefully managed, but who then pays for the overseas imports that contribute to the success of the provincial sides?  What I'm seeing from the outside looking in is 4 successful provinces (OK, some more so than others, but even Connacht are no pushovers for anyone) and the number one ranked national team in the world, and all seemingly without over reaching themselves financially.  Not bad for a population of little over 5m.

If Ireland can sustain 4 strong provincial sides without simply turning to a wealthy benefactor, then England with more than 10 times the population ought to be able to run a decent club league of a dozen teams on a similar basis.

Easy to say that it's just a product of the collective incompetence of the game's administrators in England, but what are Ireland getting so right that England are getting so spectacularly wrong, with a handful of clubs enjoying success funded by wealthy individuals while the rest are barely surviving (if at all) and the national team has largely hovered between poor and mediocre since 2003.

[Heathen]

Out of interest, does anyone know how the finances work in Ireland?  The provincial sides as far as I know are not bankrolled by wealthy individuals.  Ireland players are centrally contracted and their game time carefully managed, but who then pays for the overseas imports that contribute to the success of the provincial sides?  What I'm seeing from the outside looking in is 4 successful provinces (OK, some more so than others, but even Connacht are no pushovers for anyone) and the number one ranked national team in the world, and all seemingly without over reaching themselves financially.  Not bad for a population of little over 5m.

If Ireland can sustain 4 strong provincial sides without simply turning to a wealthy benefactor, then England with more than 10 times the population ought to be able to run a decent club league of a dozen teams on a similar basis.

Easy to say that it's just a product of the collective incompetence of the game's administrators in England, but what are Ireland getting so right that England are getting so spectacularly wrong, with a handful of clubs enjoying success funded by wealthy individuals while the rest are barely surviving (if at all) and the national team has largely hovered between poor and mediocre since 2003.

IRFU bankroll the provinces with major assistance from BoI. No celery cap.

[Vespula Vulgaris]

Club rugby has to be self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.

Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.

[Andywasp50]

Mulling this over this morning, I can’t help thinking a lot of this could have been somewhat mitigated by a football transfer system. How much time, money and resources have we dedicated to bringing through academy stars and got absolutely nothing in return when they leave.

Football clubs consider it part of their business model to sell such players to balance the books. We’ve got nothing for the likes of Billy V, Daly, Cipriani etc. We’ve developed some superstars and had no return on investment. Imagine right now if we were able to sell Jack Willis and pay HMRC? Not great, he’d be missed and I know the finances are a lot more complex that that, but surely it would make more sense. It would also ensure bigger clubs were more inclusive in order to increase the development of new talent.

[Shugs]

But logically equates to those with the deepest pockets hoovering up all the talent like the sterile football premier league. You’d also have to pay fees and the likes of Koch etc wouldn’t be cheap.

[Shugs]

Club rugby has to be
self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.

Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.

The more I think about that the more it seems insane that the “non cause clause” can’t be satisfied. The cash from govt was just loans so really just a bridging device. Diversifying income streams rather than being dependent on an individual is where all teams should try and get to. We did and, as you say, have suffered for it. Not that I imagine anyone with a semblance of power in the game will reflect on that - those funding their playthings with huge sacks of cash have too much influence for that to happen.

[Hymenoptera]

Club rugby has to be
self-financing (from funds generated within the game), it cannot be funded at the whim of very wealthy people. There needs to be a re-balancing, but you suspect that even if that happens some clubs may try and play the system.

Which is all well and good, but when a club tries to do exactly that and is shut down for 2 years because of a pandemic they are pilloried for not having £100M in the bank.

The more I think about that the more it seems insane that the “non cause clause” can’t be satisfied. The cash from govt was just loans so really just a bridging device. Diversifying income streams rather than being dependent on an individual is where all teams should try and get to. We did and, as you say, have suffered for it. Not that I imagine anyone with a semblance of power in the game will reflect on that - those funding their playthings with huge sacks of cash have too much influence for that to happen.

Isn't that too simplistic.
Given the business model was reliant on cash generation to pay back/refinance all the money borrowed, you'd have to display that prior to covid, the model was in fact sound. The fact that financials markets have contracted due to economic pressure, I'm not sure that is a sellable narrative.
I believe covid fckd us in the shorter term..but I do wonder where the refinancing would have come from in the current climate regardless.

[wasps]

Mulling this over this morning, I can’t help thinking a lot of this could have been somewhat mitigated by a football transfer system. How much time, money and resources have we dedicated to bringing through academy stars and got absolutely nothing in return when they leave.

Football clubs consider it part of their business model to sell such players to balance the books. We’ve got nothing for the likes of Billy V, Daly, Cipriani etc. We’ve developed some superstars and had no return on investment. Imagine right now if we were able to sell Jack Willis and pay HMRC? Not great, he’d be missed and I know the finances are a lot more complex that that, but surely it would make more sense. It would also ensure bigger clubs were more inclusive in order to increase the development of new talent.

I think that does exist in rugby... Just to a much lesser extent due to the economies involved in the game


In football, those with the money and the need will buy a player out of their contract. The transfer fee is whatever the 2 clubs agree on to negate the existing contract


In rugby, the same could happen, and I believe there have been a couple of examples a few years ago.
There was something funky involved when Johnny May moved mid contract.
I think there was also something with George North at one point.
And I also remember a prop at Saints, I think, who had to be bought out of a contract


However, as most clubs haven't got any money, and we have a salary cap it's incredibly rare.




Also, given the minimal financial awards for winning the league or domestic cup competition in rugby, who would pay a significant sum of money for an additional player?