Wasps to Sixways - Telegraph

[Lwasp]

Next season, under the new name of ?Sixways Rugby?, they will compete in the National League 2 West.
Two more Premiership clubs in trouble as league?s debt topples ?500m
#13. Exeter Chiefs ? ?13m
#12. Gloucester ? ?27m
#11. Northampton Saints ?26.5m
#10. Worcester Warriors ? ?26.5m
#9. Sale Sharks ? ?30.9m
#8. Leicester Tigers ? ?31m
#7. Harlequins ? ?33.7m
#6. London Irish ? ?37.5m
#5. Bath ? ?37.3m
#4. Newcastle Falcons ? ?39m
#3. Saracens ? ?40.8m
#3. Bristol Bears ? ?51.2m
#1. Wasps ? ?112.3m

Amazing that Sarries, having had all their debt written off previously, is already back up to 3rd (2nd really) in that list. Can't sell out a 10k stadium yet racks up ?40m in debt. Proof that only the super rich will survive, you'll get buried trying to keep up with the spending.

[baldpaul101]

For now we need to forget long term ambitions.
New Wasps must organise:
1. Funds to pay rugby creditors
2. A ground they can play on the satisfies the RFU
3. Be able to satisfy the RFU on any other not so obvious conditions that may or may not have been applied to the fit & proper person test.


One question on the whole Warriors situation. From what we have heard Atlas are not considered fit & proper owners for Warriors. Given that any merge/amalgamation/whatever with Stourbridge would require RFU approval, would Atlas be considered fit & proper for that?

[NellyWellyWaspy]

One point that is not being mentioned. The rugby creditors are required to attempt to mitigate their losses.

Claiming on credit insurance for example.

Some of the debt will be contingent. Wasps (and Warriors) had term contracts with players, meaning they are legally obliged to pay out the remainder of the contract. But, as the players get contracts elsewhere, they mitigate their claims and the rugby debt decreases. The debt on the players contracts could easily have been ?5-?10m for each club.

So, if a former player has not got a new contract, then their claim will increase every month. If and when Wasps get back up and running, if there are still any players without contract, Wasps could offer them a new (much reduced pay) contract for the period they would have been under contract with Wasps, because they would have to pay that player anyway.

Some of the rugby debt will need paying straight away, but much will be contingent. Indeed, some players and creditors may choose not to pursue their claim.

Some players may have decided to 'retire'.

I do not think it will be as high as some think it will be.

[Bloke in North Dorset]

As I understand it not having a P Share does not proclude you from the Premiership but it does exclude you from TV etc funding.

Doesn?t the whole P share thing fall away once the term of the CVC investment ends?

If it doesn?t then the Prem won?t (shouldn?t) have the right to negotiate deals on behalf of any team that doesn?t get their share of television rights for the games they appear in.

P Share was there before CVC. Exeter had to buy one off of Yorkshire Carnegie I think. CVC involvement just means the Premiership get 27% less of the TV money. I must admit I do not see CVC earning their over a quarter share by expanding the game!!

Thanks.

So any promoted club needs to have either access to someone else's P shares or be able to buy a proportion off each of the other shareholders in order to compete on a level playing field?

If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?

I beginning to think we need a sugar daddy league where they can do what they like with wage caps etc and which they can ring fence if they want, but no bail outs or other money from the RFU, and then for what is now the Championship to become the top of a meritocratic pyramid.

Lots of things to be ironed out ref England players, but frankly given the way the EAs' players act with all that hollering and hooping I'd be happy for the RFU to say they're only picking for the meritocrat structure if push came to shove.

[baldpaul101]

If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?

As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem

[Neils]

If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?

As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem

This quote from Exeter suggests different  -

"In 2012, Exeter Chiefs purchased Leeds Carnegie?s P share, for around ?5 million. At the time Chiefs chief executive Tony Rowe said, ??It?s taken many, many months of wrangling over whether we could have them or not. It has been a struggle because we?re competing against clubs who are getting the full income from the Premiership, but we?re okay.?

[baldpaul101]

interesting. So maybe not a requirement to be allowed in, although why you would want to play in the prem & NOT get a cut of TV revenue?

[Neils]

interesting. So maybe not a requirement to be allowed in, although why you would want to play in the prem & NOT get a cut of TV revenue?

Agreed - hogtied by the big boys!

[Sliminator]

If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?

As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem

I don't think London Welsh had a P share. My understanding has been that the P share gets you the TV income IF you are in the premiership.

[Andywasp50]

If the other clubs don't agree to that sale what happens next? Either no promotion or the scenario I outlined about TV money?

As I understand it, no P share, no entry into the Prem

I don't think London Welsh had a P share. My understanding has been that the P share gets you the TV income IF you are in the premiership.

Which means the Prem isn't a level playing field and is fundamentally corrupt.L Welsh never had a chance. It beggars belief that you can be in the Prem and your matches screened as normal, but you're not entitled to any income from it - the system sets up aspirational clubs to fail.

If you get promoted into the football premiership, you automatically get a share of the TV and advertising rights, and even if you get relegated you receive a 'parachute payment' to cover loss of revenue so you don't go bust.

The PRL is bizarre - if they want to have a fit and proper financial accountability, it starts with the PRL owning and issuing exactly the same share to every club each season, including promoted sides, with a parachute payment to clubs that get relegated. If they want to fix the game it starts at the top, and isn't left in the hands of a self interested clique of members.

[Covguy]

Wasps at sixways would kill me returning as season ticket holder. I get many fans travelled from south and I respect that. But for me it?s an hour each way. Solihull would have been ok to 30mins or so and even though I?m cov Ricoh was 30mins. Hour though is just too much for me personally and if true I?m a little gutted.

[Neils]

Wasps at sixways would kill me returning as season ticket holder. I get many fans travelled from south and I respect that. But for me it?s an hour each way. Solihull would have been ok to 30mins or so and even though I?m cov Ricoh was 30mins. Hour though is just too much for me personally and if true I?m a little gutted.

We have calculated it will be 3.5 hrs each way if traffic is kind. Might be faster when new roads are figured out viz cameras! Worcester will make it a 9 to 10 hour round trip. Will still go. Mental I know. At least the matches will mostly be at 3 on a Saturday and not be prolonged by TMOs.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Wasps at sixways would kill me returning as season ticket holder. I get many fans travelled from south and I respect that. But for me it?s an hour each way. Solihull would have been ok to 30mins or so and even though I?m cov Ricoh was 30mins. Hour though is just too much for me personally and if true I?m a little gutted.

An hour each way is not so bad. It would be much the same for me, either by motorway (M40/M42/M5), or the shorter (by distance) cross country route. But, I would do the latter and be on my bike and enjoy it (nice scenery). The Ricoh was 30-40 minutes away for me, but it was not a fun drive/ride (A46 then through Coventry on the A444 plus other roads).

[jamestaylor002]

The drive for us from Lichfield is much straighter compared to Coventry. A bit longer but the simplicity makes it more attractive. I'll be making the effort to go, I'll just have to make sure I have a parking solution sorted.

[Heathen]

Let's see the dust settle first.

I will attend whatever games that feasible for me. Time spent chez nous or stupid o'clock KO times will knock some games out.

I think a few car shares from the Thames Valley area will possibly start up.

Interestingly google is showing 1h46m using the M40 curently from HW. 2h08m via the A40 - that's a joke as it will take a fair chunk of time to clear the Oxford ring road!

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/High+Wycombe/Worcester/@51.9629517,-2.2504672,8.6z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x4876600361b47cc3:0xcd47a66f382f4def!2m2!1d-0.748229!2d51.628611!1m5!1m1!1s0x4870505800bbccd5:0xab9aa4f4d0da911c!2m2!1d-2.221575!2d52.193636!3e0