Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: BdeB on January 18, 2020, 10:23:44 PM
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Congratulations to all at the club on securing Premiership survival after only 8 rounds!
In seriousness there is talk of most clubs having already done their recruiting for next year and so not being able to pick up Sarries players. IF we have Lima and Brad coming off the books we might be one club that could sign up some players.
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Would you really take any players with the attitude of their senior squad.
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Even with our back row riches I'd take Earl. And Kpoku too
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Kpoku has already signed for Saints. But can’t see Sarries letting any of their youngsters go... they need to rebuild with them as the big earns will need to be offloaded.
I am very bitter towards Sarries and I too don’t like their attitude on the pitch as a squad. However, let’s not taint every player with the judgement that their attitude stinks. It’s the environment and collective that drives the approach. I think we’d be foolish to rule out a number of their players. Who’s to say they wouldn’t slot into out environment and embrace our ethos.
I would certainly hope Dai is taking a hard look at their squad and trying to identify any potential candidates that fit the bill. After all, we’re supposedly one of the only clubs not operating up to the cap so perhaps have more flexibility than others... budget depending.
Lewington, Loz and Iseikwe would be my shortlist
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“I am very bitter towards Sarries and I too don’t like their attitude on the pitch as a squad. However, let’s not taint every player with the judgement that their attitude stinks. It’s the environment and collective that drives the approach. I think we’d be foolish to rule out a number of their players. Who’s to say they wouldn’t slot into out environment and embrace our ethos.”
I agree.
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According to the TRP none are rumoured to be on the way to us. Fissler even tweeted last night to a thought that some could come to Wasps that Wasps can't afford any of them. Hohum.
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Not having room in the cap to bring in additional players at this stage of the season or even for next season is not unique to Wasps from what I hear. Possibly the only club who might be able to benefit and pick up some pieces are Newcastle on their repromotion.
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But Goode on the Rugby Pod says Wasps are no where near the cap?
Out of all current teams in the prem I'd have thought we aren't anywhere near the cap and could sign a couple (not necessarily Sarries) players if we choose too.
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Yesterday at the fan forum it was stated we are close to, but not at, the cap. Also it was said that a few clubs don't have any marquee players - we have two.
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Yesterday at the fan forum it was stated we are close to, but not at, the cap. Also it was said that a few clubs don't have any marquee players - we have two.
What logic would there be to not have any marquee players.
1 spot is for an overseas player.
So I can see that if a club hasn't signed anyone from overseas recently they may not be using that marquee spot.
The other spot though is for (paraphrasing) a player in the squad that's been with the team over X years (I think it's 2, but may be 3 years).
I would have thought that every club would have someone that meets this criteria
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There have been no announcements about relegation other than Sarries. I would like it confirmed that there will be no relegation for the team that comes bottom ignoring Sarries position.
We, including me, have assumed that there would be no other relegation but I would just like that confirmed.
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Yesterday at the fan forum it was stated we are close to, but not at, the cap. Also it was said that a few clubs don't have any marquee players - we have two.
What logic would there be to not have any marquee players.
1 spot is for an overseas player.
So I can see that if a club hasn't signed anyone from overseas recently they may not be using that marquee spot.
The other spot though is for (paraphrasing) a player in the squad that's been with the team over X years (I think it's 2, but may be 3 years).
I would have thought that every club would have someone that meets this criteria
Theoretically at least Marquee players are not the same as salary cap "excluded players". Whilst it is possible that a club might not have signed any players from outside the Premiership at all it does seem unlikely, especially as a player can maintain that status year on year if they had it when they were first signed. So assuming Lima was our external excluded player last year, he could continue to be so this year and assuming he stays with us and we sign no-one else on a higher salary then he could stay that way all his Wasps career. Of course if he were to leave then that place would then have to be filled by a new signing from outside the league
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There have been no announcements about relegation other than Sarries. I would like it confirmed that there will be no relegation for the team that comes bottom ignoring Sarries position.
We, including me, have assumed that there would be no other relegation but I would just like that confirmed.
Yes, I'd quite like this to be clarified.
I spent many years helping to administer a cricket league and we followed the ECB's "model discipline regulations". These allow for relegation of a team for misconduct. When (only once fortunately) this cropped up we still relegated the bottom team at the end of the season as this was as expected by the other clubs. We promoted 2 from the lower division to compensate. Big difference I know between the Premiership and a local cricket league but......
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IF there were to be 2 teams relegated, then, assuming Falcons get promoted, another would also come up. How many have grounds that meet PRL requirements? Wouldn't one of the relegated clubs have to sell their PRL shares to that other club?
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On the cap issue I'd rather we used any leeway we have in offering big contracts to Willis and Umaga. Looks like Sarries have got to shed approx £2m so that probably equates to five or six players so it may not be the free for all it's being portrayed as.
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Shugs,
Depends on relegation clauses surely? And relegation clause doesn't require transfer fees? Or am I missing something?
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IF there were to be 2 teams relegated, then, assuming Falcons get promoted, another would also come up. How many have grounds that meet PRL requirements? Wouldn't one of the relegated clubs have to sell their PRL shares to that other club?
I think a PRL share holder can be in the championship for 2 seasons until they are forced to sell. The last time it happened was Exeter buying Leeds shares I think.
In theory you can have a club competing in the EPL but not being a PRL shareholder.
Which clubs in the Championship could met all the PRL requirements though?
That being said, Sandy Park, apart from one new stand, has a lot of standing terracing which i believe wouldn't be permitted in most of the top leagues in football.
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Shugs,
Depends on relegation clauses surely? And relegation clause doesn't require transfer fees? Or am I missing something?
Yes, fair point. There will be some who have that built in. Also, with the loans if those players come back they count for the next year. Some careful balancing to be done by Sarries. In fact the same sort of balancing every other club has done for the last few years when they haven't!
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An interesting discussion. Did the Saracens players know anything about the financial corruption. Were they told that joint businesses with Wray were ok. If they had had agents, would the agents have asked difficult questions about what was being offered to their player? Is that why Saracens apparently did you want to deal with agents.
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I do also wonder how much the players were actually aware of. The suggestion from most of the ex-players is that it would be very unusual for players to talk amongst themselves about salaries.
In the private sector although I’d have a good idea of ranges of packages for various roles, other than a handful of junior staff, people very rarely spoke about salaries they were on. I’m not sure it would have been that different for the playing squad.
It’s a weird feeling, as whilst I think the ultimate punishment of relegation is fair (and actually think they should really be penalised by having their overspend deducted from the cap for the same period they’ve been over it for) ramifications for those who didn’t know this was going on and simply trusted their Senior Management and Staff is horrible - It’s been a toxic PR campaign from the Senior Leadership.
It would have been easy to have come clean, accepted their punishment and explained that it was player retention from their academy as they excelled into Senior Pros that was their major issue and people might have been more sympathetic to their plight.
That they’ve insisted they’ve done nothing wrong and were victims of a witch-hunt (and kind of still are) is the bit that has really whipped people up into a frenzy.
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A bit like you I cannot believe sitting in the changing room even the thickest EA player couldn't have grave worries looking around and thinking we are well over the limit.
I note one paper's interview a player saying Wray is being harranged when McCall has much to answer for.
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The problem for Saracens is that, in order to get promoted, they have to have complied with the salary cap for the preceding 3 seasons (I believe that is the regulation that applies to a team seeking promotion from the Championship). So, they cannot do that for 3 seasons after they are relegated, as they have been found in breach for those years.
It is right to say that a team remaining in the Championship does not have to comply with the cap, but they cannot be promoted until they have been audited and shown to have been complying with the PRL cap. Which they haven't. So, it isn't just relegation. It is relegation for quite a few years. They can't bounce back up.
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NWW...
I think it's just 2 seasons.
The bits I posted on the other thread came from the 18/19 salary cap document which is ultimately relevant at the end of that season.
It says that the club must be compliant in 18/19 (i.e. the season where they've won the championship), and the preceding season (17/18)
If they are compliant, they can then play in the prem in the 19/20 season.
So, we know that Saracens aren't compliant this year (19/20).
They'll be in the championship next year (20/21) and will presumably win it, but can't get promoted because they weren't within the cap this season.
They'll presumably win the championship again in 21/22, but to actually be allowed back in the prem, they'll need to prove that they were within the salary cap for both championship seasons.
If they don't get within the salary cap next year, then that presumably means 3 seasons in the championship.
Someone earlier suggested that would mean being forced to sell their premiership shares
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Personally speaking, I would be very unhappy if the club chose to sign any players from the EAs. It would be a case of the player having to move to another club rather than choosing to do so. Their loyalty would (IMO) be suspect and I would have thought that they may be a disruptive influence within our squad. Also, I would expect any of them to up sticks at the first opportunity. I am sure that there would be players in another context that I would be happy for us to sign from them, however not now.
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A bit like you I cannot believe sitting in the changing room even the thickest EA player couldn't have grave worries looking around and thinking we are well over the limit.
I note one paper's interview a player saying Wray is being harranged when McCall has much to answer for.
If we accept that the players did not know, then either they are idiots, or they somehow assumed that they alone had managed to negotiate an amazing deal, and all the other world class players were mugs.
Seems unlikely to me.
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A bit like you I cannot believe sitting in the changing room even the thickest EA player couldn't have grave worries looking around and thinking we are well over the limit.
Maybe they knew, maybe they had suspicions, but what could they have done about it? Go mob-handed to the boss and demand a pay cut? That'll be a first!
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A bit like you I cannot believe sitting in the changing room even the thickest EA player couldn't have grave worries looking around and thinking we are well over the limit.
Maybe they knew, maybe they had suspicions, but what could they have done about it? Go mob-handed to the boss and demand a pay cut? That'll be a first!
No but they should shut up about how hard done by they are.
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I think it's fair to expect that some players knew there was something iffy going on.
This with co-investments (Wiggy, Vunipola's, Farrell, Itoje?) must have thought they were onto a good thing, and best case scenario is that they thought it was a grey enough area that it'd so be fine.
However, the wider squad players likely don't get any of those perks. Their perks will be that they get to play with the players, hopefully improving their own game.
Would someone like Ben Spencer really know anything about what the senior players are up to, would he know the details of what a co-investment involves, would he know what salaries the top earners are on?
The co investments were a surprise to everyone about 9 months ago, and I suspect that only the players with those investments knew they were happening.
That's not to say that there aren't other dodgy deals going on, but I suspect that only those involved knew the details, and the young players in particular are likely in the dark
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The players must have known. Other players outside of Sarries knew so I'm sure they did. They made the choice, they've had their cash but all the games, titles and accolades they've won are now tarnished forever.
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I'd still be happy to take in Loz or any of the other squad players that are second choice behind the big name players if Dai thinks they are good value to us.