Always a Wasp
General Category => Wasps Rugby Discussion => Topic started by: Shugs on January 01, 2022, 04:31:45 PM
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Can’t escape the fact that injuries have hurt us in a big way. But I’m getting fed up with it being the accompanying narrative to our defeats. To be clear it’s not Blackett or the club or the players - it’s mainly the media. But I wonder if it seeps into mindsets. You can’t play a season waiting - you’ve got to make things happen. We take the field today with a pack most are happy with. Back three are good enough and OK, we’re a bit disrupted at 9, 10 and 13 but we have enough talent in the 23. I’m not sure as good as Launchbury, Robson, Willis and Fekitoa are there is going to be a wholesale change of fortune. Ironically it may be Mills we’ve missed as much as anyone. We seem to have been looking towards the end of January forever as games come and go. Those that are playing simply need to do better . Points and places are available now.
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Can’t escape the fact that injuries have hurt us in a big way. But I’m getting fed up with it being the accompanying narrative to our defeats. To be clear it’s not Blackett or the club or the players - it’s mainly the media. But I wonder if it seeps into mindsets. You can’t play a season waiting - you’ve got to make things happen. We take the field today with a pack most are happy with. Back three are good enough and OK, we’re a bit disrupted at 9, 10 and 13 but we have enough talent in the 23. I’m not sure as good as Launchbury, Robson, Willis and Fekitoa are there is going to be a wholesale change of fortune. Ironically it may be Mills we’ve missed as much as anyone. We seem to have been looking towards the end of January forever as games come and go. Those that are playing simply need to do better . Points and places are available now.
Agree about Mills he could make a big difference. Not sure I agree about the rest, I personally believe those 4 players will make a big difference. Robson especially will be massive, as I back up 9’s are poor. If mills can get up to scratch I think we will be a very good team
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Sorry not convinced Mills will offer much. A player that has been out much of the last two years cannot be seen as a saviour. Most of his "out" time he hasn't be able to train with team mates so that is a learning process first. We don't have time really.
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Yes, sorry , to clarify I don’t think Mills himself coming back now will have a huge impact. Rather that if he’d stayed relatively fit during his stay it could have made a difference. Lack of fluency at 12 has hamstrung us in so many games. Not a dig at Le Bourgeois who is just not that sort of player.
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Yes, sorry , to clarify I don’t think Mills himself coming back now will have a huge impact. Rather that if he’d stayed relatively fit during his stay it could have made a difference. Lack of fluency at 12 has hamstrung us in so many games. Not a dig at Le Bourgeois who is just not that sort of player.
Yep that I agree.
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I agree with you, Shugs. Injuries is too often used as an excuse now. But that doesn't account for why we are so poor tactically, and why players are making poor decisions on the field.
Given how we're playing I think we're higher in the league than we deserve to be
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Can’t escape the fact that injuries have hurt us in a big way. But I’m getting fed up with it being the accompanying narrative to our defeats. To be clear it’s not Blackett or the club or the players - it’s mainly the media. But I wonder if it seeps into mindsets. You can’t play a season waiting - you’ve got to make things happen. We take the field today with a pack most are happy with. Back three are good enough and OK, we’re a bit disrupted at 9, 10 and 13 but we have enough talent in the 23. I’m not sure as good as Launchbury, Robson, Willis and Fekitoa are there is going to be a wholesale change of fortune. Ironically it may be Mills we’ve missed as much as anyone. We seem to have been looking towards the end of January forever as games come and go. Those that are playing simply need to do better . Points and places are available now.
Can't believe im agree with you for once :(
We are poor because we are poor, not because of injuries.
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Have to say that I have never heard Lee in any tv interview blame injuries for the result
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Have to say that I have never heard Lee in any tv interview blame injuries for the result
This was today's thougts from Lee :
"Everyone knows about their defence, how structured it is, knows that on their day, they're one of the best defences in the competition, and they got hold of us at times.
They won collisions, we didn't carry, we didn't win the gain line anywhere near enough, as a consequence, we struggled at times. As the pressure came on, and the more that happened, the more we tried to force things, then we get sloppy with the ball and make mistakes. Everything compounds.
We gifted them points. I think if you're coming up against a team like Sale, we're talking about being clinical in our own half, they have a five metre lineout that we over throw that they pick up and score.
We have a restart that we drop and they go and score, it was too easy to score points. You have to work so hard to score points at this level, and we're gifting teams easy points quickly."
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I'm beginning to think we might be seeing the result of not brining in a top class DOR when Dai left. The initial dead cat bounce made it look like our coaching was up to the challenge. Time has showed that not to be the case.
Something has to change. We have some truly brilliant players who are massively underperforming, and we have no coherence or continuity. One week we look full of potential, the next we look worse than useless.
This is not the fault of the players.
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I'm beginning to think we might be seeing the result of not brining in a top class DOR when Dai left. The initial dead cat bounce made it look like our coaching was up to the challenge. Time has showed that not to be the case.
Something has to change. We have some truly brilliant players who are massively underperforming, and we have no coherence or continuity. One week we look full of potential, the next we look worse than useless.
This is not the fault of the players.
+1
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Change is required - but the key one for me at least - won't until we have the ability to rotate players and "use the bench" rather than hope we don't have to....
Examples - up front, Stooke has started 9 of 10 Prem (the stats don't include a R1) games and played all game in 8, Fifita has started 10 of 10 Prem games
Looking at Exeter - they've started 6 different SR's just in Prem games.... we've started the same two players, 9 times.....
Brad is similar at 6, starting 10 games, Tom W started 8, both playing nearly all the games that they start, Tom Y, has started a lot, and has nearly 600mins played this season (that's high end for forwards)
Jimmy has played a load of minutes too (over 600) and been involved in 10 Prem games aged 38.....
We had to borrow players to make a 23 vs Munster.
So - I do think we've had to play too many players too often and for too many minutes a game. This has been a key feature up front - whereas in the backs (where more minutes are more common around the Prem - not a surprise... compared to playing hooker.....) we've rarely had the same combinations and have played too often with players out of position/third choice players.
However good or bad we are on the coaching front - there's only so much you can do when you're not able to rotate nor play a myriad of first choices who would take pressure off those who are not "first" choices. And not actually having a fit or not near retirement 12 this season, probably hasn't helped.....
Like others - I'll hold judgement until we get to see some of those key players back and match fit.
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Change is required - but the key one for me at least - won't until we have the ability to rotate players and "use the bench" rather than hope we don't have to....
Examples - up front, Stooke has started 9 of 10 Prem (the stats don't include a R1) games and played all game in 8, Fifita has started 10 of 10 Prem games
Looking at Exeter - they've started 6 different SR's just in Prem games.... we've started the same two players, 9 times.....
Brad is similar at 6, starting 10 games, Tom W started 8, both playing nearly all the games that they start, Tom Y, has started a lot, and has nearly 600mins played this season (that's high end for forwards)
Jimmy has played a load of minutes too (over 600) and been involved in 10 Prem games aged 38.....
We had to borrow players to make a 23 vs Munster.
So - I do think we've had to play too many players too often and for too many minutes a game. This has been a key feature up front - whereas in the backs (where more minutes are more common around the Prem - not a surprise... compared to playing hooker.....) we've rarely had the same combinations and have played too often with players out of position/third choice players.
However good or bad we are on the coaching front - there's only so much you can do when you're not able to rotate nor play a myriad of first choices who would take pressure off those who are not "first" choices. And not actually having a fit or not near retirement 12 this season, probably hasn't helped.....
Like others - I'll hold judgement until we get to see some of those key players back and match fit.
I agree. And, as I said, they (those who have repeatedly started) look tired.
I hope that we can get back to normal by the start of next season. I do not expect us to be able to recover before then. I would be targeting 5 games for the win over the rest of this season:
Home V Bath (this is the first match I can realistically see any significant improvement in injury returnees)
Away v Bears
Home v Falcons
Home v Warriors
Home v Sharks
I expect that to leave us around 8-12th place, depending on other teams.
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Injuries have a multitude of effects though. Not only are key decision making positions effected, but they effect structure and familiarity, even moving Gopps from 12 to 10 has a negative effect. If the side that played Sale had played for a few weeks in a row together, we'd have seen a better team.
On top of that, when you're missing so many key players, it's not just on the match day it's felt, none of our teams are able to train against Jack Willis, Joe Launch, Odogwu, Fekitoa, Mills etc.
Who exactly do you think our centre pairing are training against during the week? It's never going to be able to replicate a regular prem starting centre pairing, because they're simply not good enough (yet, in the case of the youngsters). If all week you prepare against a much weaker side, you're not going to be as sharp as you would be as if you'd been training against better players.
Remove 17 players from the squad for training, and you're really struggling to even put out a correctly positioned 15 to work against.
Then as pointed out, there's rotation. We simply cannot rotate at the moment, which opens up to more niggles and potential injuries. Normally you can tweak one or two players in and out, still ahve them to train against, and be able to more easily integrate the changes into a side.
We were doing fairly well at first, I suspect because whilst we were missing key players, the team had time to train together, get familiar, build patterns and understanding. Then as you lose more players, that cohesion starts dropping (and the niggles etc).
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Injuries have a multitude of effects though. Not only are key decision making positions effected, but they effect structure and familiarity, even moving Gopps from 12 to 10 has a negative effect. If the side that played Sale had played for a few weeks in a row together, we'd have seen a better team.
On top of that, when you're missing so many key players, it's not just on the match day it's felt, none of our teams are able to train against Jack Willis, Joe Launch, Odogwu, Fekitoa, Mills etc.
Who exactly do you think our centre pairing are training against during the week? It's never going to be able to replicate a regular prem starting centre pairing, because they're simply not good enough (yet, in the case of the youngsters). If all week you prepare against a much weaker side, you're not going to be as sharp as you would be as if you'd been training against better players.
Remove 17 players from the squad for training, and you're really struggling to even put out a correctly positioned 15 to work against.
Then as pointed out, there's rotation. We simply cannot rotate at the moment, which opens up to more niggles and potential injuries. Normally you can tweak one or two players in and out, still ahve them to train against, and be able to more easily integrate the changes into a side.
We were doing fairly well at first, I suspect because whilst we were missing key players, the team had time to train together, get familiar, build patterns and understanding. Then as you lose more players, that cohesion starts dropping (and the niggles etc).
Good post.
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Agreed. I also think we’ve missed some sensible rotation opportunities though. Cardall at lock is underplayed for me. Carr, who can play anywhere in the back row started for the first time yesterday (acknowledging he’d come off a full SA season). Millar-Mills could have given JTA a couple of games off. I wouldn’t be looking at any coaching changes at all yet. Far too early and far too many adverse circumstances.
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Change is required - but the key one for me at least - won't until we have the ability to rotate players and "use the bench" rather than hope we don't have to....
Examples - up front, Stooke has started 9 of 10 Prem (the stats don't include a R1) games and played all game in 8, Fifita has started 10 of 10 Prem games
Looking at Exeter - they've started 6 different SR's just in Prem games.... we've started the same two players, 9 times.....
Brad is similar at 6, starting 10 games, Tom W started 8, both playing nearly all the games that they start, Tom Y, has started a lot, and has nearly 600mins played this season (that's high end for forwards)
Jimmy has played a load of minutes too (over 600) and been involved in 10 Prem games aged 38.....
We had to borrow players to make a 23 vs Munster.
So - I do think we've had to play too many players too often and for too many minutes a game. This has been a key feature up front - whereas in the backs (where more minutes are more common around the Prem - not a surprise... compared to playing hooker.....) we've rarely had the same combinations and have played too often with players out of position/third choice players.
However good or bad we are on the coaching front - there's only so much you can do when you're not able to rotate nor play a myriad of first choices who would take pressure off those who are not "first" choices. And not actually having a fit or not near retirement 12 this season, probably hasn't helped.....
Like others - I'll hold judgement until we get to see some of those key players back and match fit.
It's difficult, as you can't say the team looks disjointed and then call out players being overplayed. Combos need time to bed in. SR and back row have been areas of strength this year because we have had consistency. Though Fifita hasn't played every game, he didn't play against Sarries (and Stooke came off the bench).
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Well - ok, I don't think I quite said/meant that. My position, perhaps badly explained is this. I think you can suggest some players are over played and others haven't played together/are nowhere near first choices and on top of that - the teams selected have had fewer than is ideal opportunities to train against squad members. Mainly due to injury.
Our SR's have still played too many games and too many minutes for anyone to be so surprised that they are a little knackered? We have done fine in the backrow. But again, too many games for Brad and Tom and again made worse by too often being in a team on the back foot.
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Any chance we could get this guy back on loan to help out with the crises at centre?
https://twitter.com/waspsrugby/status/1479014883823861761?s=21
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Any chance we could get this guy back on loan to help out with the crises at centre?
https://twitter.com/waspsrugby/status/1479014883823861761?s=21
None.
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Any chance we could get this guy back on loan to help out with the crises at centre?
https://twitter.com/waspsrugby/status/1479014883823861761?s=21
None.
Plus he’s been out long term injured too
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Plus he’s been out long term injured too
Should fit right in then !
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Maybe he never really left?
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Maybe he never really left?
;D ;D ;D ;D