England team to face Scotland

[Mikeuk56]

England team to face Scotland
Furbank; May, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Heinz; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Itoje, Ludlam, Underhill, Curry

Replacements: Dunn, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Lawes, Earl, Youngs, Devoto

[King Prawn Phuna]

6/2 Split on the bench.  More bish bosh then......Devoto is going to have his work cut out if they go a man down in the backs....

[St Bruno]

Never been impressed with Joseph. At last, Youngs demoted to the bench. Perhaps he'll be left on the coach next time!

[DGP Wasp]

Expect the England backs to be targeted.  Back row will be looking to rattle Ford and Farrell, and Daly and Furbank will be bombarded from on high, especially bearing in mind the weather forecast.  With only Devoto and Youngs on the bench things could get tough.

To think I joked about the possibility of Sinckler at centre and Itoje on the wing!

[mike909]

For those who like rubbish facts

Ford, Farrell and JJ started all of EJ's 2016 6 Nations games and start tomorrow, 4 years on.....passing like its 2016!

Since then, the centres have been.....

• 2017 6Ns OF and JJ (Te'O one start)
• 2018 6Ns, OF and Te'O/JJ
• 2018 SA Tour OF/Slade
• 2018 AI's Te'O and Slade
• 2019 6N's Manu and Slade
• 2019 RWC, Manu plus Slade or OF

And we started this 6Ns with iron gloves OF and barely fit Manu as it seems if able to walk, they have to play. And can't be dropped. The best of those centre partnerships did seem to be Te'o at 12 and Slade at 13 in those AI's in 2018. Te'O was dropped as soon as Manu could play - and we played him at 12......when he plays 13 for Tigers and is an injury magnet (sadly)

So did England take the RWC finishing and a new RWC cycle starting to have plans for centre? Nope....and lost Tompkins to Wales

Ditto at 9 - time for change
Ditto at 10 - time for Smith to get a game (not even in squad - Jacob won't play a game this year)
Ditto at 8 - the Jones discards look like good players......e.g. Hughes and others

And so we have a novice 8, a v old 9, two 6's, 2016's options at 10.12.13. a 13 at wing and a novice at FB.

I am torn on what I think is the best outcome for England this w/e and beyond

[Shugs]

Pretty depressing. Is Farrell undroppable? Has Eddie been watching Daly for the last 18 months? Expect the Scots to pump endless high balls on Daly and Furbank.

[mike909]

Pretty depressing. Is Farrell undroppable? Has Eddie been watching Daly for the last 18 months? Expect the Scots to pump endless high balls on Daly and Furbank.

I only looked at the centre stuff as elsewhere, someone said that "non one could be dropped for Tompkins" and I thought we've been changing especially 13 endlessly to little effect and have come back to JJ. I like JJ. But he's at his best in a different sort of set up, outside a different sort of 12.

And then I looked more closely and OF can't be dropped.....he was pretty good at 12 for the Lions, but J Davies at 13 was more than helpful with a simple game plan. He's only (for me) looked good for England at 12 when really on top

England seem to fall between the power backs game, with Farrell at 10 and someone like Te'O at 12 and trying to shoehorn Ford and Farrell and Manu in a midfield that doesn't quite work....and then having to consider Slade

I'd really like to start again. Even if we lose a few. With a backline that looks (like but not necessarily) Maunder/Randall/Robson, Smith/Umaga, May/Joe C, Devoto/Hill, Slade/TBC, McConnochie/Thorley, Watson/TBC

Least wed be looking towards 2023......

[Heathen]

It is patently clear that Eddie should have cleared the decks and picked a squad with 2023 in mind. Most of this lot are either spent already or will be PDQ. The WC final demonstrated how you win a final. France demonstrated last week that he has learnt nothing from it.

[wasps]

I always try to see the best in our squad and match day selections.
I also believe that there's a plan somewhere even if it's hard to identify.

However, it's hard for even me to ignore Mike's analysis of the centres.


Over the course of 4 years, with roughly a dozen games per year, we've tried just 5 different players at centre.
Given that it's often considered one of our weakest areas that seems crazy.

We're currently doing exactly what caused Lancaster so many problems - pinning all hopes in Manu Tuilagi..... Albeit we're doubling down on that by pinning all hopes on both Manu and Farrell.

[wasps]

Unfortunately, there's a general belief that Owen Farrell is one of the best players in the world.
For that reason, he will never be dropped

I don't understand it, I really don't.
I have no idea who I would really want at 12 instead (always quite liked T'eo), but lack of alternatives does not make Farrell one of the world's best.


I know we have history with Elliott Daly, but for me, he's not the problem in the England team, even if he's in his worst position of full back.

The whole structure of the backline isn't exciting, except for those occasions when we somehow build some intensity and steam roller opposition
When it's a tight contest, we just don't seem to have any magic

[mike909]

Over the course of 4 years, with roughly a dozen games per year, we've tried just 5 different players at centre.
Given that it's often considered one of our weakest areas that seems crazy.

For me, the problem that was self inflicted as Jones waited to after the 2018 6Ns foul up, with 15 months to the RWC, it was seen that a reset was required. We lost 5 in row and Cips may have saved his job in SA.....6 in a row might have been too much. And when we did really well, Ben Te'O and Slade in combination, we broke it up to accommodate Manu in the 2019 6Ns at 12....., seemed to always want OF and Manu in the team and took Francis to the RWC ffs....

And now - we're playing a midfield the same as 2016.

[Shugs]

Pretty depressing. Is Farrell undroppable? Has Eddie been watching Daly for the last 18 months? Expect the Scots to pump endless high balls on Daly and Furbank.

I only looked at the centre stuff as elsewhere, someone said that "non one could be dropped for Tompkins" and I thought we've been changing especially 13 endlessly to little effect and have come back to JJ. I like JJ. But he's at his best in a different sort of set up, outside a different sort of 12.

And then I looked more closely and OF can't be dropped.....he was pretty good at 12 for the Lions, but J Davies at 13 was more than helpful with a simple game plan. He's only (for me) looked good for England at 12 when really on top

England seem to fall between the power backs game, with Farrell at 10 and someone like Te'O at 12 and trying to shoehorn Ford and Farrell and Manu in a midfield that doesn't quite work....and then having to consider Slade

I'd really like to start again. Even if we lose a few. With a backline that looks (like but not necessarily) Maunder/Randall/Robson, Smith/Umaga, May/Joe C, Devoto/Hill, Slade/TBC, McConnochie/Thorley, Watson/TBC

Least wed be looking towards 2023......

Totally agree. I'd be going with Ford 10, Devoto 12 and Slade 13. Along with those you name I wouldn't be waiting too long before getting Lawrence from Wuss involved (assuming he's English qualified). I've seen him a few times and he looks a real prospect - even if at the minutes it's as one of Eddies "apprentices".

[mike909]

Its a shame Wade wasn't allowed a chance as a back three of Wade, Watson and McConnochie would have scared a lot of people!

I wouldn't have waited. I think OF will play until Jones goes, sadly.....ditto Manu if he can walk unaided.....

[wasps]

I agree with everyone that says Eddie is stubborn and wants to prove that his way is best.
However I also believe that more than anything else he wants to win.
Winning his way is just the icing on the cake.
That being said, like any experienced coach, they have a vision for how they think things should be done.

That's why I feel there has to be a tried and tested plan here somewhere.

On age alone, the whole back line has another world cup in them.
His plan may well be to continue working with this set of players for another 4 years with just minor tweaks to see where things can be improved in isolation.


It is quite a worrying thought especially as there aren't many positions in the backs that are head and shoulders better than other players in the prem

[backdoc]

It is extraordinary that EJ doesn't understand that it now has to start again.