Joe and Alfie released by Eddie

[WonkyWasp]

But then doesn't it  seem a bit bonkers to include him in the first place?

[Rossm]

A casual observer might question EJs motive for not releasing two key players to a club coached by an ex-employee knowing that he had no intention of retaining them in the 23. And at the same time allowing an experienced prop to leave the group for a few days in order to play against said team knowing that he was going to de retained. Hopefully there are some probing questions being asked, but I doubt it!

Does anyone genuinely believe Marler went up to Eddie (or vice versa) and said something along the lines of "Listen maaate, I know you hate Wasps so how about you let me go and play against them this weekend and sort out Quins scrum but keep Alfie and Joe here then release them before the Wales game, it'll wind up their supporters loads, piss off Mitchell and we'll probably beat them if i play?"

Yes, I do. Except the discussion would be limited to Marler and Quins.

Bullying exists on many levels, and doesn't all come from the boss.

Marler had played 32 minutes total off the bench over 2 weeks and has a history by his own admission of mentally struggling with long periods in camp, to me he seemed an obvious player to release back to play for his club whoever they were playing against.

That's as maybe, Chunk. But the club game simply doesn't impinge on Jones' thinking and that's one of his problems. It didn't penetrate his thick skull that it would appear that he was favouring one club over another - both of them opposing each other in a vital game last weekend. It probably never occurred to him.

[Covkid40]

For me it’s quite simple, Joe hasn’t played enough games and isn’t 100% back up to speed yet and Alfie isn’t quite ready yet. I know that sounds like the perfect reason to send them back last weekend to get game time but I genuinely don’t think Eddie thinks like that, in his head he thinks they will get more benefit training with England than playing for Wasps and he needs a certain amount of bodies for training. I don’t believe Eddie favours one club over another because I don’t believe he gives a toss about anybody else’s needs when it comes to rugby

[Bloke in North Dorset]

For me it’s quite simple, Joe hasn’t played enough games and isn’t 100% back up to speed yet and Alfie isn’t quite ready yet. I know that sounds like the perfect reason to send them back last weekend to get game time but I genuinely don’t think Eddie thinks like that, in his head he thinks they will get more benefit training with England than playing for Wasps and he needs a certain amount of bodies for training. I don’t believe Eddie favours one club over another because I don’t believe he gives a toss about anybody else’s needs when it comes to rugby

That is the only reason I can think about that makes sense without going in to some conspiracy about Jones hating Wasps.

He expects Marler to play against Wales plus his well known mental health problems with travelling, but he needs game time, so sending back to his club makes sense. He knows Joe probably won't be playing, because he hasn't got enough game time, but he wants him around just in case and to help with training. Alfie's a different beast, he hasn't become an England fixture yet so either Eddie is still considering him on the bench, he wants to mold him or he wants bodies for training, maybe a bit of all three.

Jones isn't paid to consider the effect on teams and to be fair it would drive a man crazy going through all the permutations when considering the 6N rest weekend.

All this would be easier to accept if Jones was such an arrogant sod who delights in playing mind games with just about everyone, including England and club fans.

[andermt]

A casual observer might question EJs motive for not releasing two key players to a club coached by an ex-employee knowing that he had no intention of retaining them in the 23. And at the same time allowing an experienced prop to leave the group for a few days in order to play against said team knowing that he was going to de retained. Hopefully there are some probing questions being asked, but I doubt it!

Does anyone genuinely believe Marler went up to Eddie (or vice versa) and said something along the lines of "Listen maaate, I know you hate Wasps so how about you let me go and play against them this weekend and sort out Quins scrum but keep Alfie and Joe here then release them before the Wales game, it'll wind up their supporters loads, piss off Mitchell and we'll probably beat them if i play?"

Yes, I do. Except the discussion would be limited to Marler and Quins.

Bullying exists on many levels, and doesn't all come from the boss.

Marler had played 32 minutes total off the bench over 2 weeks and has a history by his own admission of mentally struggling with long periods in camp, to me he seemed an obvious player to release back to play for his club whoever they were playing against.

The mental health bit I get but the playing minutes, no, Jones has history of playing players with very little game time, last years six nations and the Sarries boys for example?

I also think he plays mind games with players, probably along the lines of, yes you can go back to your club on the rest weekend, but it may impact on your availability for England and you may be in contention for the next game......
I'm sure he did this with Odogwu.

The other half follows some of the players other halfs on Instagram etc, and she said that Joe was at home most of the weekend as his missus was posting stuff with him in it, so he wasn't actually in camp.

[Chunky24]

A casual observer might question EJs motive for not releasing two key players to a club coached by an ex-employee knowing that he had no intention of retaining them in the 23. And at the same time allowing an experienced prop to leave the group for a few days in order to play against said team knowing that he was going to de retained. Hopefully there are some probing questions being asked, but I doubt it!

Does anyone genuinely believe Marler went up to Eddie (or vice versa) and said something along the lines of "Listen maaate, I know you hate Wasps so how about you let me go and play against them this weekend and sort out Quins scrum but keep Alfie and Joe here then release them before the Wales game, it'll wind up their supporters loads, piss off Mitchell and we'll probably beat them if i play?"

Yes, I do. Except the discussion would be limited to Marler and Quins.

Bullying exists on many levels, and doesn't all come from the boss.

Marler had played 32 minutes total off the bench over 2 weeks and has a history by his own admission of mentally struggling with long periods in camp, to me he seemed an obvious player to release back to play for his club whoever they were playing against.

That's as maybe, Chunk. But the club game simply doesn't impinge on Jones' thinking and that's one of his problems. It didn't penetrate his thick skull that it would appear that he was favouring one club over another - both of them opposing each other in a vital game last weekend. It probably never occurred to him.

Should it be part of his thinking? Itss not his job to make sure players released balance out for sides playing each other, as we know he very much has his own thoughts.

[Chunky24]

A casual observer might question EJs motive for not releasing two key players to a club coached by an ex-employee knowing that he had no intention of retaining them in the 23. And at the same time allowing an experienced prop to leave the group for a few days in order to play against said team knowing that he was going to de retained. Hopefully there are some probing questions being asked, but I doubt it!

Does anyone genuinely believe Marler went up to Eddie (or vice versa) and said something along the lines of "Listen maaate, I know you hate Wasps so how about you let me go and play against them this weekend and sort out Quins scrum but keep Alfie and Joe here then release them before the Wales game, it'll wind up their supporters loads, piss off Mitchell and we'll probably beat them if i play?"

Yes, I do. Except the discussion would be limited to Marler and Quins.

Bullying exists on many levels, and doesn't all come from the boss.

Marler had played 32 minutes total off the bench over 2 weeks and has a history by his own admission of mentally struggling with long periods in camp, to me he seemed an obvious player to release back to play for his club whoever they were playing against.

The mental health bit I get but the playing minutes, no, Jones has history of playing players with very little game time, last years six nations and the Sarries boys for example?

I also think he plays mind games with players, probably along the lines of, yes you can go back to your club on the rest weekend, but it may impact on your availability for England and you may be in contention for the next game......
I'm sure he did this with Odogwu.

The other half follows some of the players other halfs on Instagram etc, and she said that Joe was at home most of the weekend as his missus was posting stuff with him in it, so he wasn't actually in camp.

He didn't do it with Odogwu, there were Covid bubbles in place then, if a player left they basically couldn't come back so no real options for him.

He did play the Saracens boys with few minutes and look what happened, rusty and not up to speed, one of the few errors he has admitted.

The camp was Monday to Friday I believe so every chance players were back home by the weekend but no chance of playing for clubs that weekend.

Disclaimer- I realise I am sounding like an EJ defender here, that is not the case, just think some of the accusations on here this time are a little wild, even as a Wales Rugby supporter!

[mike909]

Regardless of why Launch and Alfie are back early in the week, the Jones' "confidence" that he can play undercooked players continues. Manu T has played 30 min and 50 mins for Sale since the SA game and surely can't be up to speed? And Lawes has played zero minutes since 16/1....

Whilst players in form and up to match speed can be dropped into their familiar positions at short notice, it's this sort of selections that easily backfire.

A comment that will age badly if England win by 30....

[Neils]

Regardless of why Launch and Alfie are back early in the week, the Jones' "confidence" that he can play undercooked players continues. Manu T has played 30 min and 50 mins for Sale since the SA game and surely can't be up to speed? And Lawes has played zero minutes since 16/1....

Whilst players in form and up to match speed can be dropped into their familiar positions at short notice, it's this sort of selections that easily backfire.

A comment that will age badly if England win by 30....

Thing is Wales are so bad it could well be 30 unfortunately.  Eddie bees knees again.

[mike909]

It could, but I think their stinker was vs Ireland and they will have gained confidence from the Scotland game - but away fixtures are always hard.

If they stay in the game, their game "intelligence" is more mature than our - as shown last season.

[Shugs]

My underlying problem with it is that it clearly looks to have been Marler’s decision. But no-one else in the camp seems to have been given the choice. They may have stayed, but someone like Launchbury may have wanted a game.

[baldpaul101]

Perhaps when Marler was talked into returning to International rugby after he had "retired" he had this kind of option agreed with Eddie?

[Chunky24]

My underlying problem with it is that it clearly looks to have been Marler’s decision. But no-one else in the camp seems to have been given the choice. They may have stayed, but someone like Launchbury may have wanted a game.

Depends which articles you read, some says he requested it presumably for game time and to help Quins, another says left out, mention in the rugbypass one below he hadn't started a game since castres 21st Jan and his own coach doesn't know why he was released and no contact with Eddie, the truth is probably somewhere in between!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rugbypass.com/news/what-harlequins-have-made-of-the-england-release-of-joe-marler-tabai-matson/

[califauna]

In discussions about players being released from England camps, why is there usually no mention of the preferences of the clubs they are with?  The availability of certain players is gong to be critical for a number of clubs. They are surely going to be leaning on EJ to release them sometimes, and we know the sway the clubs have in the Premiership, without its central contracts, but those requests are not necessarily going to be public news are they.  But so many seem to discount it completely. What am I missing here?

[hopwood]

I have read somewhere recently that there is an unwritten understanding that if players are mainly getting called up from say 7-8 clubs, England will then try and bring in players from the remaining squads to be involved in training (and obviously take a look at).

I’m pretty sure there’s an understanding whereby (overall) there’s an attempt to balance things out a bit throughout the season.

This would certainly make sense, although won’t necessarily appeal to all fans.