Always a Wasp

Author Topic: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)  (Read 2410 times)

hopwood

  • Guest
England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« on: March 10, 2022, 10:14:51 AM »
When I said the other day (in another thread) that I was willing to give Eddie a bit of time (which is unlike me), it's because of Gleeson's ideas and strategy.
I was mentioning that they have new ideas in the way of attacking, different to Ireland, France and what other sides have done before.
This could give them a very unique edge, should it work consistently.

As I said previously, it's a shame Eddie was so controlling in previous years, because this style of rugby could be very exciting and effective.
But he needed to hand over far more responsibility to the players.
I wish he had started implementing this style a year or two ago. But maybe Gleeson was the piece of the jigsaw that was missing. Only time will tell.
But I, for one, won't judge England on these 2 games. I'll judge them after the Summer Tour and the Autumn internationals.

Martin Gleeson interview: England attack coach honing 'new style of rugby' that has never been seen before

Martin Gleeson is aiming for nothing less than a revolution. The England attack coach has been tasked by Eddie Jones with creating a style of play that has never been seen in the international game’s 151-year history.

Jones, the England head coach, has long believed that shirt numbers should be irrelevant outside the set-piece. Now Gleeson, a former Great Britain and England rugby league international, is attempting to put that formation-free vision into practice, whereby any player can fill in at scrum-half or first receiver, all in the name of quick ball and heads-up rugby.

“We want to try to play a new way of rugby,” says Gleeson, 41. “We have got a vision of how we want to play where we are not copying off anyone else. We want to play a certain way, where we want to generate quick ball, and it does not really matter who is going in at nine.

“Because when you get it right it is hard to defend and you are playing what you see. You are not playing to any predetermined pattern. We can look up and play what’s in front of us at that time and judge accordingly. We want to play where the space is.

“It is harder to implement and there’s a lot of work to do, but once you get it you become more dangerous and hard to defend.”

The line between total rugby and a total rabble is mighty thin, however, and so far at least the practice has been markedly different to the principle.

Treating the Italy game as an outlier, England’s attack stuttered for large periods against Wales and Scotland, yielding just five line breaks and two tries. As Gleeson, brought in by Jones to replace Simon Amor last summer, suggests, this revolution would never entail a smooth, orderly transition.

If a foundation was laid during an unbeaten autumn, this Six Nations is being used to add “layers”. The first focus was on improving England’s kick return, and Gleeson says their numbers have “gone through the roof”.

But getting to the opposition 22 is not the problem. Instead, it is England’s red-zone efficiency which is holding them back, with a tally of 1.2 and 1.3 points per visit to the opposition 22 against Scotland and Wales. “On kick return, we made a few breaks off being direct and making short passes to get us on the front foot and playing to the edge if the space was there,” Gleeson says.

“At the moment, we are getting the ball off kick return and getting down in the 22, but that’s the area where we are not taking the next step and capitalising on the work we are doing to get there. We have got a couple of layers we want to add on. If you go too much too early you will get completely lost.”

The instinctive skills of Marcus Smith at fly-half are central to this vision. Coming from a rugby league background, Gleeson loves Smith’s willingness to attack the line, but at the same time his unpredictability poses a challenge for team-mates and opponents alike. “He has his goose step and if someone is not used to that, who is playing outside, then he may overrun him,” Gleeson says. “He has got to get used to the players around him and the players have to get used to him and the way he plays when he gets the ball.”

As much technical work as there is to do, the greatest change may be the philosophical shift in giving players the licence to thrill. “You want it to look good, you do,” Gleeson says. “You want to entertain and we encourage that. We speak about that to the lads. We want them to go out and go for it.”

Gleeson would seem an unlikely implement of attacking change. Nearly all coaches who come from league arrive in a defensive capacity, such as Andy Farrell and Shaun Edwards, who coach England’s next two opponents. “I played with Faz for Great Britain and he led with his actions,” Gleeson says. “He was very mentally tough and gave really good messaging when he got the players in. He was that kind of leader, whereas I was probably thinking about things more; how do we do this? How do we do that? I always had that curiosity – thinking like a coach on the pitch.”

Coincidentally, Farrell, Edwards and Gleeson all hail from Wigan. “It’s weird, isn’t it? I don’t know. We’re all a bit mad in Wigan, I think.” For several years, Gleeson would be interrogated by Edwards during the Six Nations, asking him how he would defend these attacking moves in league. “That started me thinking what you could do in attack,” says Gleeson, who took up a role as an assistant coach with Wasps in 2019.

Despite his glittering achievements as a player, Gleeson rarely looks back and he has no shirts on his wall, nor does he dwell on his past indiscretions, which included bans for gambling and doping.

“I just focus on the now,” he says. “When it’s done it’s done. That’s a memory, it’s history. You can take lessons from everything and it has served a good purpose for me going forward.”

If there is one lesson he can take from his league career, it would centre on the two years he played for St Helens between 2002 and 2004. His best rugby coincided with his happiest period as a player. “That was a brilliant team – Paul Sculthorpe, Keiron Cunningham, Sean Long, Paul Wellens,” Gleeson says. “That was a fun team to play in and a good crew off the field. We talk about attacking rugby and you were allowed to play. We played rugby with a smile on our faces, which is what we want the lads to do. We want Marcus to do that. He plays best when he has got a smile on his face.

“It’s about giving the lads confidence and the tools to go after it, no matter what part of the pitch they’re on. We are not quite there yet, but we are confident we will get there pretty soon. There will be nothing better than if we nail it this weekend.”

Heathen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3101
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2022, 10:44:06 AM »
A good read.

Which begs the question - have we suffered following his departure from Wasos?

mike909

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2430
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2022, 10:49:21 AM »
All very interesting.

Is there a very good reason such an approach hasn't been seen before - even from the Aussies, AB's or French?

JonnyD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2022, 10:55:57 AM »
I don’t really see us attacking any differently. I do have a slight Eddie hatred mentality so I am a bit blinkered but I still see us kicking the ball away too much when in possession with little grubbers following Eddie’s idea that it’s better to not have the ball.
I think we are potentially only attacking more because Randall and Smith haven’t had it beaten out of them yet.

We couldn’t break Wales down at all last time and can’t see us managing any better against Ireland and France.

I also do not think we saw any noticeable change in attack under Gleason at Wasps, although he was technically under Blackett for some of this time.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 10:59:09 AM by JonnyD »

matelot22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2022, 11:00:10 AM »
It all sound s very good on paper, but I have 2 issues with this:
1. Are we expecting these hybrid players to perform better than players that are playing those positions week in, week out? The evidence thus far strongly suggests that is unlikely to happen.
2. Any team that says it wants to play off quick ball, yet continues to pick Ben Youngs is a living contradiction.

mike909

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2430
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2022, 11:16:48 AM »
It all sound s very good on paper, but I have 2 issues with this:
1. Are we expecting these hybrid players to perform better than players that are playing those positions week in, week out? The evidence thus far strongly suggests that is unlikely to happen.

That was my next thought too. Whilst it's not sport...my work point of difference is that I am an expert generalist...something I didn't realise until late into my career. I spent far too long trying to an expert....However, what that meant was that I was very good at spotting when I or my team needed to use an expert. And that expert was able to do things I couldn't - BUT - often, couldn't explain what they were doing to interested parties

Now - having played sports to a decent level - highest level in cricket, mixed with near/semi pros of the 80's - there was a good reason why most players specialised. Whilst I was an all rounder - I was not going to open the batting even if I opened the bowling. I could "do a job" but wasn't as effective as a regular opening batter. And whilst - like watching good AB teams - you'd expect players to fill in when required, I'd want Christian Wade, say, on the end of a half chance, 40m out, rather than Jack Nowell.....because the chances of scoring appear somewhat higher.

So this is either a paradigm shift in rugby - and something even the ABs haven't thought of....or Jones being too clever for his and England's own good....

Mellie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2022, 11:34:26 AM »
It all sound s very good on paper, but ...
Any team that says it wants to play off quick ball, yet continues to pick Ben Youngs is a living contradiction.
Absolutely. It's also a bit late to start trying to play this way for the next World Cup. It needed a clear out of older 1 dimensional players that don't fit this style much earlier and identification of players who could and then given the time to experiment, bed in and perfect.

It really is just about having players that can identify what contribution they can make for the team, with sufficient skills to do it in any given scenario, which is what training can cover. Not easy when rugby has been played by numbers for years.



matelot22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2022, 11:35:04 AM »
So this is either a paradigm shift in rugby - and something even the ABs haven't thought of....or Jones being too clever for his and England's own good....

I can't help, but think the latter. There is already an almost position-less form of rugby, it's called league.

I realise I'm probably being very cynical, but this all strikes me as Gleeson buying into EJ's daft soundbites, and just recycling his hot air. I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see it bringing anything other than failure.

Heathen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3101
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2022, 11:37:34 AM »
It all sound s very good on paper, but ...
Any team that says it wants to play off quick ball, yet continues to pick Ben Youngs is a living contradiction.
Absolutely. It's also a bit late to start trying to play this way for the next World Cup. It needed a clear out of older 1 dimensional players that don't fit this style much earlier and identification of players who could and then given the time to experiment, bed in and perfect.

It really is just about having players that can identify what contribution they can make for the team, with sufficient skills to do it in any given scenario, which is what training can cover. Not easy when rugby has been played by numbers for years.

Should have happened immediately after the 2019 final.

DGP Wasp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2447
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2022, 11:42:44 AM »
These sorts of proclamations always seem to come from Eddie or one of his coaches during a run of poor performances to try and pull the wool over the eyes of the public and the media that what we are actually witnessing is not a complete shambles lacking any coherent game plan, but the beginning of something truly ground breaking and revolutionary that we will one day thank him for.  Never, "We tried some something different; some bits worked, some didn't; plenty to work on in training", more "I've decided this is the way, it's all part of my geniuis plan and we will bloody well stay on course whether it's working or not."

Shugs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4425
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2022, 11:56:02 AM »
I’m sorry but that’s possibly the biggest load of tosh I’ve read in a long time. Rugby, perhaps more than most team sports is a game of specialisms. 9 is very definitely one of those positions that is a specialism. Giving him the benefit of the doubt I’m assuming he’s talking only of backs rotating effortlessly but even so it’s just bonkers and just stating it as an ambition won’t make it so. I’m assuming on the flip side, whilst Tuilagi is swooping in to box kick or spin a quick ball to his 10 Harry Randall will be poised at 12 to punch holes and carry up the guts of teams. Emperor’s new clothes for me - and not even smart ones.

HDAWG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1320
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2022, 12:26:05 PM »
I’m sorry but that’s possibly the biggest load of tosh I’ve read in a long time. Rugby, perhaps more than most team sports is a game of specialisms. 9 is very definitely one of those positions that is a specialism. Giving him the benefit of the doubt I’m assuming he’s talking only of backs rotating effortlessly but even so it’s just bonkers and just stating it as an ambition won’t make it so. I’m assuming on the flip side, whilst Tuilagi is swooping in to box kick or spin a quick ball to his 10 Harry Randall will be poised at 12 to punch holes and carry up the guts of teams. Emperor’s new clothes for me - and not even smart ones.

You're probably right, but you don't know until you try it. Might be a revolution or straight up not work, but why not.

Shugs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4425
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2022, 07:38:52 PM »
Because we don’t need to. We could have spent all the time since the last WC investing and building around the likes of Smith at 10, Malins (who should be our nailed on 15), any from Robson/Mitchell/Spencer at 9, Slade at 13 and wingers playing on wings. Instead we’ve farted about trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Let’s face it, Gleeson’s hugely radical theory boils down to supplying quick ball. It’s not really transformative. Pick the right players rather than going head to head with the press and 90% of your issues are sorted.

Skippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2022, 08:52:35 PM »
I thought something like this had been tried in the past.

Nick Mallet - Italy - Bergamasco - Scrum Half - an experiment killed off after 40 minutes.

Bloke in North Dorset

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2472
  • Wasps Rugby Fan
    • View Profile
Re: England's new style - Gleeson (Telegraph article)
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2022, 10:17:01 PM »
Because we don’t need to. We could have spent all the time since the last WC investing and building around the likes of Smith at 10, Malins (who should be our nailed on 15), any from Robson/Mitchell/Spencer at 9, Slade at 13 and wingers playing on wings. Instead we’ve farted about trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Let’s face it, Gleeson’s hugely radical theory boils down to supplying quick ball. It’s not really transformative. Pick the right players rather than going head to head with the press and 90% of your issues are sorted.
If they want to build a team around Smith, a plan I endorse, then why not get Care back for a few games? He’s playing as well as any 9 but more importantly his relationship with Smith and Dombrandt will at least give some stability while the sort the rest of the mess out.