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Author Topic: Geech Talks Sense.  (Read 1778 times)

Rossm

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Geech Talks Sense.
« on: May 15, 2022, 11:35:36 AM »
In The Sunday Telegraph.

English clubs are so far off the Champions Cup pace - and this is why

The Irish and French invested heavily in their academies, weaning themselves off overseas superstars

Why are the French and Irish dominating the Champions Cup at the expense of the English? Despite Premiership clubs winning the tournament four times in five years between 2016 and 2020, there has recently been a significant drop-off in the competitiveness of English clubs at the business end of the world’s best club competition.

This trajectory has been clear over the past three years. In 2020, three of the quarter-finalists were English, three were French and two were Irish. Last year, five of the quarter-finalists were French, one Irish, two English - with both English teams well beaten. This year, once again there were just two English quarter-finalists and again both were well beaten, meaning a second successive semi-final stage with no English representatives.

In truth, England’s clubs have been off the pace collectively in recent years, which has been neatly obscured by the success of Saracens, who between 2016-19 won the competition three times and, with the exception of 2018, reached the semi-final stage every year between 2012 and 2020. Exeter also won the competition in 2020 after having their quarter- and semi-finals at Sandy Park before a final in Bristol, but no other English side has reached the semi-finals since Northampton lost the final in 2011.

At the moment Ireland have three sides which are genuine competitors capable of winning the Champions Cup, while France have six. England have none.

This weekend’s semi-finals are yet further proof of the French and Irish domination. The reasons for that originate in decisions taken over the past decade or so when both the Irish and French bit the bullet and started investing heavily in their academies, weaning themselves off overseas superstars and prioritising players who were eligible for their national team.

Both French and Irish clubs – the latter in tandem with their union – have sought to bring in a very small number of marquee players who can not only add to the playing strength of the side, but even more importantly also add something to the culture. So in Munster you have Damian de Allende following the path blazed by real leaders like Jim Williams, Doug Howlett, Patrick Howard and Christian Cullen. It’s the same at Leinster with James Lowe following in the stead of Felipe Contepomi, Rocky Elsom, Scott Fardy, Owen Finegan and Isa Nacewa. Ditto Ulster with Duane Vermeulen.
So, too, in France where they’ve gone from packing their teams with expensive foreigners to being far more selective, picking only experienced overseas players who can really make a difference both on the pitch but also to their culture. So it is that this weekend’s French semi-finalists feature Finn Russell at Racing, Victor Vito at Ronan O’Gara’s La Rochelle and the Arnold brothers at Toulouse. These are players who can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and who inspire team-mates. Alongside this is a structured and organised approach between the clubs and international set-up, led by respected rugby personalities alongside good coaching.

In the Premiership, there are far more journeymen overseas players, partly because the focus on bringing through England-qualified youngsters from the academies is several years behind France and Ireland. A classic case-in-point is at Sale, where there are now so many South African players that it’s difficult for good English players to get a look in. Former Springbok coach Rassie Erasmus has spoken of his surprise that Sale have held back the development of Raffi Quirke, who I believe should be England’s World Cup scrum-half, by playing the admittedly world-class Faf de Klerk ahead of him. He’s right; Quirke needs a co-ordinated playing programme that gives him significant game time. The French and the Irish have actively sought to avoid this scenario and it has paid dividends for them.

Seismic cultural change at the heart of French revolution

The professionalisation of French rugby, in particular, has allowed them to build on their strengths to produce a Top 14 competition which now has such intensity and variety that it is the perfect preparation for the challenges thrown up by the Champions Cup. Off the pitch, French rugby has always had a focus on community and identity, while on it they have a good blend of piano movers and piano players, but they often lacked fitness, the 80-minute intensity and the hard mental edge needed to win on the road. The relentless demands of the Top 14 mean they no longer just play with passion within the sound of their own church bells, and are now resolutely competitive home and away. They’ve retained their physicality and brilliant individualism, but now have a discipline and team-first ethos. That’s a seismic cultural change.

The success of their academies in turning out good young players means that they have incredibly strong strength in depth off the bench, which has been crucial in Europe. As Sale Sharks director of rugby Alex Sanderson loudly pointed out, this is partly down to resources – the salary cap in England is £5million per club, Ireland’s teams are estimated to receive £6.6m each, and in France the salary cap is £8.5m - and the squad sizes that come with that. But it’s also about the sheer quantity of good young players in Ireland and France, which is being reflected at under-20 level for France. This allows the Irish and French clubs to compete on two fronts, as Leinster did when they sent effectively a second team to South Africa in the URC so they could field a first-choice team at Leicester Tigers. Young talent needs structured gametime in the Premiership if it’s to develop; this should be a priority because it makes both rugby and commercial sense.

The Top 14 and URC seem to be producing teams which are half-a-yard faster in thought and deed because they have to be able to play a variety of ways. The Irish provinces need to be able to play against the brute power of the South Africans, and the high-tempo game of the Scots, which produces an all-court game. Ditto France, where all the top clubs have to be able to switch between the rapier and the bludgeon. Many top English clubs – Exeter and Leicester are good examples - tend to be more attritional and one-dimensional and struggle against sides which can mix up how they play and the speed at which they do it.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!

Shugs

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2022, 12:01:47 PM »
There are some sensible points in there. But I’ll take some convincing cash and availability aren’t bigger factors. Are all French clubs way way under the cap? I suspect not. As for the URC it’s a non competition. I’d not want to watch that.

backdoc

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2022, 12:10:39 PM »
I would be surprised if there were not cheap apartments and free cars involved in France.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2022, 12:22:22 PM »
Ireland have one team capable of winning the main competition  not three, and Munster are as one dimensional as ever. France have more. I take the general point, but it is over egged.

Heathen

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2022, 05:14:46 PM »
Leinster have the best young players handed to them on a plate, No doubt the IRFU are paying the bills. There is  a prescribed route through the schools and colleges in the Province that leads directly to the club,

And as an added bonus they will have all played and learned the skills of gaelic football as well.

jamestaylor002

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2022, 11:28:42 PM »
I'm aware this makes me look a bit sad but I am always tempted to run the numbers on how many games Leinster's top players appear in the URC.
It's easy to look good in Europe when 1/ Leinster's squad is effectively the Irish one 2/ it is likely that the top players playing time is managed in a way to ensure they are at their freshest for European weekends.

For the record, I think this is where the provinces get player management right but I suppose that's possible when there isn't the threat of relegation and the financial repercussions of that. Although, if relegation is removed from the Prem, we may no longer have this excuse!

Jac A

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2022, 11:43:18 PM »
I'm aware this makes me look a bit sad but I am always tempted to run the numbers on how many games Leinster's top players appear in the URC.
It's easy to look good in Europe when 1/ Leinster's squad is effectively the Irish one 2/ it is likely that the top players playing time is managed in a way to ensure they are at their freshest for European weekends.

For the record, I think this is where the provinces get player management right but I suppose that's possible when there isn't the threat of relegation and the financial repercussions of that. Although, if relegation is removed from the Prem, we may no longer have this excuse!

I have no worries about looking sad, especially about stats.

Leinster have player 17 games in the URC and 7 in the Champions Cup.

               URC     CC
Porter        5         6
Furlong      4         6
J Ryan       3         2
Doris         5         7
VdF           6         7
JGP           5         7
Sexton      3         6
Lowe         6         6

Shugs

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2022, 06:48:41 AM »
Thanks Jac - and that’s the difference. Sexton, Furlong, Ryan (I know he’s had an injury) are playing 3-4 games from 17. It’s the fans of the regions I feel sorry for. The bread and butter competition they are asked to stump up cash to watch is a watered down preparation for what are perceived to be bigger priorities.

Steve from Cov

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2022, 09:14:50 AM »
Leinster have the best young players handed to them on a plate.

That’s because they are pretty much all local lads.

Peej

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2022, 09:31:15 AM »
It's not entirely true that the Irish pull through their academies. For Leinster, Lowe and Gibson-Park are Kiwis. Henshaw was signed from Connacht. Munster and Ulster all have a strong spine of foreign internationals.

As for the French, it is certainly true that houses and cars are offered, several Toulon players said that was part of their deals. But the big difference in France is surely the JIFF system is beginning to take effect. Although even then, there are plenty of mediocre French teams packed full of foreign journeymen.

baldpaul101

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2022, 10:58:51 AM »
We get a re-hashed version of this every time there's not an English club in the final.
I would suspect that when there is not a French or Irish club there then similar stories are in French & Irish press complaining about how England's way of doing things is so much better then theirs.

It cyclical, it happens.

jamestaylor002

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2022, 01:32:59 PM »
I'm aware this makes me look a bit sad but I am always tempted to run the numbers on how many games Leinster's top players appear in the URC.
It's easy to look good in Europe when 1/ Leinster's squad is effectively the Irish one 2/ it is likely that the top players playing time is managed in a way to ensure they are at their freshest for European weekends.

For the record, I think this is where the provinces get player management right but I suppose that's possible when there isn't the threat of relegation and the financial repercussions of that. Although, if relegation is removed from the Prem, we may no longer have this excuse!

I have no worries about looking sad, especially about stats.

Leinster have player 17 games in the URC and 7 in the Champions Cup.

               URC     CC
Porter        5         6
Furlong      4         6
J Ryan       3         2
Doris         5         7
VdF           6         7
JGP           5         7
Sexton      3         6
Lowe         6         6

Thanks Jac, so this kind of re-enforces my point then really!

You would never see this in the Prem (this is based purely on when relegation was in the Premiership). Imagine only seeing Joe, Jack, Dobby and some of our other key players playing a maximum of 6 games in the prem. It wouldn't happen.

I don't watch the URC but, for those who do, can you tell me whether you think that the league is devalued by this? I don't think any other club does this in the URC, do they? I wonder, if relegation is removed from the Prem, we would start to see this happen more for English clubs?

DGP Wasp

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2022, 01:41:08 PM »
I wonder, if relegation is removed from the Prem, we would start to see this happen more for English clubs?

Very much doubt it.  The clubs pay the players' wages, and the punters pay to see those players play.  Take the England internationals out for 3/4 of the season and interest in season tickets is likely to wane.

westwaleswasp

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2022, 01:55:43 PM »
The quicker Wales pulls out of the URC the better from their POV.

Peej

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Re: Geech Talks Sense.
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2022, 01:59:23 PM »
I wonder, if relegation is removed from the Prem, we would start to see this happen more for English clubs?

Very much doubt it.  The clubs pay the players' wages, and the punters pay to see those players play.  Take the England internationals out for 3/4 of the season and interest in season tickets is likely to wane.

This is exactly the risk of the new 'global season' international calendar. It's bad enough at the minute, let alone with more games on top.