Match thread - spoilers

[Fats]

The worrying part is we are pretty much at full strength. Teams around us have reinforcements to come in.

I'm not going to call out for Dai to go, the team need to front up, they are paid professionals. Having never questioned the coaching before I am now wondering why we are sooo bad...
To pretend all is ok in an attempt show how positive you are and anti DW is lost after 2 weeks of this dross i'm afraid...4-0!!!!! And we could have played for another 2 hours and we still wouldn't have scored, they will have scored another 4.

All is not well. But equally all is not lost. Whilst it's disappointing to lose it's not the end of the world. No reinforcements to come in? Minozzi, Young, Launchbury, Rowlands, Rieder, Vellacott, McIntyre, Searle and T Willis?

I’d love to have some of what you have been prescribed that gives you this upbeat vision of the world. 

[Fats]

My comments earlier are not knee jerk. We have been poor for a long time. It’s not just the two league losses this season, the wheels fell off long ago. If it were a business that was performing badly for a sustained period then the leader would be under huge pressure. However you look at it, Dai is not getting the results. Things must change and we can’t keep changing the players. People blamed last year on players not wanting to be at the club. We shouldn’t have that problem anymore

👍👍

[Shugs]

Fats, Marlowman, we are two games in. It may turn out that you're right and the wheels have come off. I'm not a hopeless optimist - I'm just prepared to give it more than 160 minutes of rugby before deciding. This is not last season or any other and the playing personnel is different. Initial signs haven't been great but we have quality players. That has to tell sooner or later.

[Hymenoptera]

No reinforcements to come in? Minozzi, Young, Launchbury, Rowlands, Rieder, Vellacott, McIntyre, Searle and T Willis?
[/quote]
But Shugs, Launch aside, maybe Minozzi eventually, who are these players a a step up from. Are you saying Rieder is a step up from Carr? Or Velacott is up from Robson, etc etc...I wasn't looking for bodies, I was looking for improvement.

[Eezamarlowman]

Shugs, we are passionate Wasps fans on here and we will often have different views. I admire your optimism and hope it changes for the better soon. I don’t think it will though. Dai is not capable of turning this around. He seems to have lost the plot. I was embarrassed by his comments yesterday after the game. He is not a top quality coach. He had won nothing and he has had long enough at Wasps to change that. What style of play is he known for? Does he ever give anyone a rollicking?  Nice bloke, rubbish coach in my view. Would love to see someone like Cheika come in and kick ass,  he won’t , but someone of that ilk is what’s needed. Could you imagine Gatland putting up with the crap we have endured this past year and a bit ?

[Westy68]

I have to agree this is not just 2 games this is 2 years. The player quality has dropped a lot, also coaching hasn’t improved at all.

I keep hearing it’s a new start, Gloucester are 2 years ahead of us. How is that possible Dai has been DOR a lot longer than ankerman.

None of are players are rubbish, it’s silly to say that but a lot of our players are nowhere near as good as some people think.

For me Jack Willis, Launchbury and Thomas Youngs are the only players we missed yesterday.

The New Zealand 3 are bang average at best.

I’ve got a really bad feeling this will be launchburys last season with us. Our poor player recruitment and coaching will effect his chances with England.

We are in serious trouble this season and I’m sorry Gopperth is not the messiah

[Fats]

Fats, Marlowman, we are two games in. It may turn out that you're right and the wheels have come off. I'm not a hopeless optimist - I'm just prepared to give it more than 160 minutes of rugby before deciding. This is not last season or any other and the playing personnel is different. Initial signs haven't been great but we have quality players. That has to tell sooner or later.

Shrugs

It’s a continuation of the state we were in last season.

We have a “structural issue” that is not being addressed.

I would love things to turn around but look at the table two games in.

Bottom two are Tigers with no points and Wasps with one. Top two have 9 points each.  Tigers are known to have problems and we don’t?

We can’t even win a home game against the side promoted from the Championship. Furthermore our DOR watched a different game from the rest of us yesterday.

Do you think it is just bad luck that has influenced so many of the top coaches who were linked with joining us over the last 12 months or so?  Dream on guys. There is trouble at mill.

[Hymenoptera]

Dai's comments were delusional, that's a fact, Glaws were playing a different game to us, not because they were world beaters, just because we are terrible I can't put the blame at his door tho as I'm not sure how much coaching he actually does.
Something is wrong in the setup somewhere though.

[Eezamarlowman]

I think you may be right Westy about Launchbury. I also agree that the ageing Gopperth is not gonna cure all our problems. Surely that’s why we bought Lima? He is working out to be a very costly investment especially when you add in Fekitoa costs to try and make him more successful. I really hope we get something positive on the pitch to post about soon. We have suffered long enough as fans

[Hymenoptera]

I disagree regarding Launch, he'll lose out on England based on the sheer competition he's against and what style EJ wants to play.
As a side, if anyone saw Sainst play this weekend. a 20 year old at 10 with 13 playing 12 outside him and he ran the show with chips, grubbers, crossfields, distribution and kicking for territory. All from a 3rd choice 9 inside him.
All of this creativity and decision making required nothing from his 12.

[Dgwasp]

The problem with Sopps is that we've recruited him without considering how to use him.  He can't be a bad player, his credentials show that, he is just playing in a disfunctional unit and I don't think we have the coaching personnel that can find the answers for how to get the best from him, along with a couple of other quality players.

First of all in Rugby the game plan has to work and click with the team, you then add top class players to add something extra.  We seem to run out of ideas very quickly and I couldn't say what our game plan is.  All I can say is that we have players who are week in week out looking worse off than a couple of years ago.

The last 18 months has seen so few points gained from (prolonged) visits to the opposition 22.  I think we are hoping the "big names" can do something on their own to rescue the situation.  Unfortunately that makes us easy to defend against.

If nothing changes, I see 4 or 5 wins this season at best.  At present I don't see what is going to change, however Wasps have surprised me in the past.

As for the bigger picture, we clearly have issues to overcome given problems attracting any of the coaches we've been linked with.  We don't know what these problems are and owing to this I won't be too quick to point all blame on Dai's doorstep.   I'm just trying to keep positive about the longer term based on the new role given to Matty Everard, introduction of Stephen Vaughan in the background and hopefully an end in sight to the training ground saga.

[mike909]

Dg - interesting post - can't disagree with that

However...I do wonder about the backroom. Only because I wonder (and I'm not informed enough to know) how much our successes from 14/15 to 16/17 were down to talented individuals, Even in 2014/15 Andy Goode was top Prem points scorer and Varndell and Wade score 22 tries between them. We then got Cips back...

So were we "coasting" at all from a coaching POV? And are now and last season being caught out?

Genuinely interested as the Gatland and Edwards and McGeechan years were times when for better (mainly) or worse, we had top level coaches/leaders. But even they had their period of effectiveness

[westwaleswasp]

If we do only win four or five, we will drop. We must win more than that.
I would hope that 8 wins would be enough this year.

[King Prawn Phuna]

Just a couple of reflections of the game.

-You certainly missed Willis
-I did think you were coming back and were looking better at the start of the second half and Gloucester had to wake up.  Fortunately the stupid yellow card gave us the break (btw the bloke looked demented with crazy eyes and needs to calm down)
-Dan Robson is looking very deflated at the moment and a shadow of former self, whereas Simmo is thriving with the freedom he is being given and become a favourite from the off.
-i wouldn't judge your season based on the performance in the conditions yesterday, Kingsholm has one of the best pitches in the country now, and it couldn't cope with amount of rain that fell in the before and during the match. From what I've seen it didn't come across on the TV but it was lashing it down.
-Always a good banter with those who made the trip over or down  and really do hope things pick up, but ditching Dai isn't the solution.

[NellyWellyWaspy]

Dg - interesting post - can't disagree with that

However...I do wonder about the backroom. Only because I wonder (and I'm not informed enough to know) how much our successes from 14/15 to 16/17 were down to talented individuals, Even in 2014/15 Andy Goode was top Prem points scorer and Varndell and Wade score 22 tries between them. We then got Cips back...

So were we "coasting" at all from a coaching POV? And are now and last season being caught out?

Genuinely interested as the Gatland and Edwards and McGeechan years were times when for better (mainly) or worse, we had top level coaches/leaders. But even they had their period of effectiveness

Thinking about it, probably, yes. Not building a team but having players who could feed and make holes for those who scored. The game is different now. Not so many players in the ruck means making holes is much harder.

I think the coaches and players understand this.

How many of us have criticised EJ over the years? Criticised his choices? But, his one goal has been building a team that can win, consistently, that can come away with the silverware next week.

It is not the most attractive rugby, but I don't think that the modern game is structured that way, and changes afoot will make it even less glitzy. The coaches (and Dai) have a hard job, transforming the players from the old style to what is needed.

#1 First, you get them to play together, to be more cohesive.  The pack you sort first (1A), then the backs (1B).

#2 Then, you focus on the defence. Again, the pack first (2A), then the backs (2B).

#3 Then you focus on the attack.  Again, the pack first (3A), then the backs (3B).

Where are we on those?

1A 80%
1B 40%

2A 65%
2B 25%

3A 30%
3B 10%

Just my gut feel where we are. I think Ackerman came into a Gloucester setup that was a lot further along in some respects than we are. But, it IS where we are. It is 1B that is letting us down. We have no effective leadership in the backs, but there ARE signs that it IS improving. I watched the game on Saturday quite closely for who was doing what in the backs to build. It HAS to come from the fly half and centres. And Fekitoa was that man. When he had a brain fart and got himself sent off, the backs fell apart. I know that Lima and Fekitoa are good mates, and that will help. But we have an obvious and yawning gap at 12. Juan is NOT a 12 and doesn't appear to be that leader. Booj is not a leader, and has a way to go to be a really top level 12.

We are reliant on Jimmy. Ageing and repeatedly crocked (I know, it could just be bad luck, but you make your own luck). I know many of you criticise EJ and keeping that Ford/Farrell axis, but they are so effective and cohesive together. And now Tuilagi has tacked himself outside them most effectively.

In my list above, 1B above is our stumbling block. And we do not have the available personnel to fix it. Thing is, I said this last season, and we have done nothing to fix this gap. We can't easily fix 1B, and without that, progress simply will not quickly happen. At #11 in the table, we are where we deserve to be. Are there any SH 12s coming free after the WC? Not this season, as we have spent to the cap.